Ping Yu: (on-hold music) Well, hello, everyone.
Welcome to the Blooms and Beyond podcast.
A podcast that uncovers plant history, culture, and management through the lens of science.
I'm your host, Dr. Ping Yu.
Uh, how's everyone doing today?
I am doing great because here I have one of my favorite people, my, uh, dear horticulturist colleagues and friends, and also my
boss, Dr. Leo Leonardo, uh, Lombardini, here with me today on the show.
and we're going to talk about one of the most fun and exciting topics, coffee.
I know folks out there who's listening to this episode, m- many of you may like me, who has to start my day with a cup of coffee.
And our speaker today is an expert on coffee with many years of research experience and, of course, tons of fascinating stories and a lot of scientific knowledge, uh, to
share today and to help us understand the coffee in a different level.
So I don't want to steal any more thunder from our speaker today.
Let's just jump right into it.
Without further ado, here is my conversation with Dr. Leo Lombardini.
I hope you enjoy it.
(on-hold music) So, uh, hey, uh, Leo, welcome to the podcast.
Yes.
But first, let's start off with the introduction.
Can you tell our audience a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Leo Lombardini: Yes, of course.
Uh, it's my pleasure, and thank you so much for the invitation.
Uh, I'm very excited about this opportunity.
Uh, my name is, uh, Leo Leonardo Lombardini.
I am currently the head of the Horticulture Department here at the University of Georgia.
I've had this position since two thousand nineteen.
I'm a native Italian.
I grew up in Tuscany, grew up in Florence, uh, and then, uh, I came to the United States, uh, long time ago, thirty years ago, to work on my
PhD, uh, Michigan State University, and then moved around the country a lot.
I spent a lot of time at Texas A&M, just like you.
Uh, that's where we met, uh, and became very, very acquainted and, and close.
And then, of course, uh, even more so since you joined UGA.
So it's, uh, it's a pleasure.
It's all full circle and, uh, all here for the love of horticulture.
Ping Yu: Yeah.
A- and I still remember vividly when I was a grad student at Texas A&M attending the plant physiology class when you were lecturing, and one of your...
uh, two of your students, PhD students, are actually a very good friend of- a, a very, um, close friend me, of mine.
It's kind of how, well, exciting and, uh, magical how we kind of circle back (laughs) working for the same department.
But, um,
y- as you mentioned, you grew up in, in, Italy and, uh, but what first sparked your interest in horticulture?
Are you seeing yourself as a nature kid when you grew up, or how, how did this come to your radar and, well, become one of your interest or own
when you grew up, or you kind of, you know, stumble through to this trajectory?
Leo Lombardini: Yes.
Uh, I grew up in the city, uh, in Florence.
So I did not come from, uh, um, a family that was involved in agriculture.
Uh, but I attribute my interest, uh, as a young kid to the fact that my parents, uh, they bought a, very old, farmhouse in Tuscany
in the late sixties and, um, fixed it up.
And one of the things that they did was, uh, actually resurrect, uh, an abandoned, uh, vineyard and, uh, olive trees.
So with a lot of, uh, sweat and hard work and help with, uh, you know, from family, extended family to have pruning days or harvest days, uh, they were
able to, again, resurrect this, uh, uh, vineyard, and they would start making wine, you know, learning from, from scratch by asking around and trial and error.
And I was there as a little kid, uh, uh, helping, uh, harvest and see how the grape juice turned into wine.
And of course, I would not try.
Well, maybe I did, but (laughs) we don't have to say.
Uh, and that's, uh, also spending a lot of weekends and summers in this, uh, um, house, which is still in the family, actually, extended family.
My, um, cousins, uh, own it now.
But, um, the summers were, uh, days of, uh, finding ways to stay engaged and s- stay busy.
This was pre-video games, uh, pre-computers.
So I had to find things, uh, to entertain myself, uh, in...
They had to do with nature, whether it was, uh, planting trees or playing with the chicken and, and I think that's really what's, uh, triggered the interest in, in
plants and observe and grow and develop and, and give fruits and vegetables and all that.
Ping Yu: Yeah, yeah.
And then to-- so do you-- does your family who still own the, uh, the property, do they still grow grapes and make wine?
Leo Lombardini: Yes, they still do.
Ping Yu: Mm-hmm.
Leo Lombardini: Yes.
Ping Yu: Wow.
That's...
Wow.
How many years?
It's just become Yeah.
Leo Lombardini: It's been, uh, since the seventies, since the, you know, early se- very early seventies.
So it's been- So- Yeah.
Ping Yu: So it's becoming a family tradition where- Mm-hmm the legacy that carried on.
Leo Lombardini: That's right.
Ping Yu: Uh, so I know that you have been worked with so many different plants yourself, coffee included, and, um, pecan, and now you're a department head, uh, overseeing
all those horticulture crops.
Over all those-- among all those plants, and do you have a favorite, and why?
Leo Lombardini: Yeah, uh, I really like, uh, actually, uh, pecan is a very interesting species that I became very attached to, not only because I, I studied it for
a, good 15 years, but, uh, also because it's one of those, um, uh, plants that is very...
The history of cultivation, but precedes actually the arrival of the Europeans.
This is a, a, species that is native to the North American continent, and it had a very, very important, uh, um, uh, role and for Native Americans,
uh, because it was a good, uh, source of, uh, of food, especially during winter months, uh, because the nuts obviously were harvested and, and stored and
a lot of things were made with this, uh, with these nuts, uh, which, uh, are very high in fat.
So they were a very important source of energy and food for Native Americans.
Uh, um, and, uh, so I think I like that, that, you know, this majestic, uh, tree that is really a beautiful tree also, uh,
had such a, uh, an importance for Native Americans, but also for, um, animals.
Think about, uh, how much energy it provides to squirrels and birds and crows and others, uh, because, uh, it helps them sustain throughout the winter.
So I, I really like that.
And I kind of compare that to, to the chestnut tree.
Uh, chestnuts is a very important species in, uh, in Europe, uh, at least the European chestnut I'm talking about.
And that's because also just like the pecan is, uh, is still, uh, harvested from the wild and, uh, uh, especially during, uh, periods of
hardship, I'm thinking about, let's say, World War I or other periods, uh, uh, during centuries, um, you know, during, uh, uh, pandemics or, um, I'm referring
to prior to the COVID pandemic.
Uh, the...
It was, uh, essential to, uh, sustain families that were living in the mountains, you know, places where there were not many other, uh, food sources during winter.
So kind of I, I compare the chestnut to the pecan trees because of this, uh, commercial, but also, uh, more, more, um, social importance for people and
animals.
Ping Yu: Yeah.
Yeah.
And then I have to mention that, uh, the economic value of both of those are pretty important because I know, well, pecan has a pretty big role in Texas,
and then you spent years, uh, studying pecan in back in Texas A&M.
Leo Lombardini: Yes.
Ping Yu: And here in Georgia, um, pecan commodity is contributing a lot economically speaking to- Absolutely our Georgia economy in general.
So- Yes I see the reason, uh, behind why you love those.
(upbeat music) (laughs) And I know you personally, um, is a big fan for co- of coffee, and you have done a lot of work on
coffee, and you were the director of the coffee or the Borlaug Center for World Coffee center back in Texas.
And it's people out there who's listening to this, I would say 90%, if not more, are coffee drinkers.
(laughs) But, um, it's such a beloved crop on the planet, but how did you first get involved in coffee research?
Leo Lombardini: Yes.
It was, uh, uh, one of those things of being in the right place at the right time, at the right time, I guess.
Uh, because, um, I have to give credit to Dr. Elsa Murano, who was and still is the director of the Borlaug Institute, Nor- Norman Borlaug Institute for International
Agriculture at Texas A&M University, because I interacted with her professionally in a few instances.
But, uh, when, uh, um, uh, at some point, the Borlaug Institute was awarded, uh, a fairly large grant from, um, USAID,
the United States Agency for International Development, which is now semi-defunct.
But, um, this was, uh, um, in 2014 when, uh, um, uh, Central American countries, coffee-producing countries
had just, uh, witnessed a resurgence in coffee leaf rust, which is, uh, uh, one of probably the, uh, the worst, uh, um, diseases
that can affect the coffee crop.
And again, in 2012, 2013, there was, uh, one of those perfect storm that had to do with climate and, uh, um, developing of new strains
of fung- fungi and then, um, economic factors.
Anyway, so the, this fungus became a serious concern for many of these countries.
And so, uh, the Borlaug Institute, together with, uh, World Coffee Research and, uh, several of the big coffee players in, in the United States, uh,
joined forces, and, uh, this, uh, grant was awarded
with the idea of, uh, helping, uh, nine Central American coffee-producing countries to fight and be...
uh, fight this disease and develop a more resilient industry.
So at that point, they were looking for somebody at the, uh, Texas A&M campus to help co-lead, uh, this project, especially for the, the
component that was gonna take place, uh, at Texas A&M, because obviously most of the activities were gonna take place, uh, in the producing countries.
And so this is when she approached me.
Uh, she wanted to know if I was interested in this.
And the, the reason why she came to me, I assume, is I guess, (laughs) I hope because she, she trusted I could do the job, but also because I
had previous experience working in Central America.
I was quite fluent in Spanish.
And so, you know, she asked me, and I, um, I immediately accepted because I thought it was a, a very good cause.
Uh, and, um, something I was very interested in.
So, um, and you know, I just wanna put a pre- a, a little parenthesis here and say, 'cause say, you know, some people may wonder why is the United
States interest in doing a project on a crop that is only marginally grown in the United States?
Because, uh, honestly, only, uh, Hawaii is...
Hawaii and a little bit, very little bit of boutique coffee production in California, but these are the only two states where coffee is grown in the United States.
So why is the United States investing, uh, money in, um, helping coffee-producing countries in Central America?
Well, there's at least a g- uh, uh, a good couple of good reasons.
One is because, uh, um, we import pretty much all the coffee that we drink, and mu- much of this coffee comes from Central American country.
So obviously it's important for us to make sure that, um, coffee importers and coffee companies continue to have their supply.
But also, um, according to, you know, statistics, there are over two million jobs in the United States there are...
that revolve around coffee, and then of course includes all the importers, but also think about all the coffee shops, the coffee roasters, all the, the manufacturer for the cups
and the lids and the stirrers and everything else.
And so it's, it's a, it's a good reason.
We wanna make sure those jobs are, are,
are secured.
In fact, uh, going back to the origin of this grant, when 2012, 2013, this big, uh, coffee leaf rust outbreak took place, there was
a, a spike in migration to the United States that economists and, and people that study, uh, this actually directly correlated with the coffee
rust.
So again, it's, it's a, it's kind of a soft approach to reduce, um, illegal migration and also illegal, um, you know, being involved
in illegal activities, some of the Central American countries.
Um- Yeah.
Ping Yu: And, and some people may, uh, never thought science to this level.
They would think that, okay, horticulture is just horticulture.
It's plants and everywhere.
But, uh, I, I'm glad that you mentioned, um, it's just a very good example to show the impact of horticulture.
We're not just people growing plants, but, uh, we help people in so many different ways, and not just in the United States, but worldwide.
Yeah.
people are rely on those activities to have a good life, and that's our whole point as scientists, as universities to provide all the resources to help them
maintain a kind of decent life- Yeah so that they can, um, be happy.
That's one of our goals.
(upbeat music) So before we get scientific, and let's go back to the daily coffee drinking type of activities.
So when you take your coffee, because you have all those experience and knowledge on coffee itself, what...
With all those experience and knowledge, does it change the way that you drink it for your, from your daily routine of coffee drinking?
Leo Lombardini: (chuckles) Yes, certainly.
Um, it taught me a lot also because, uh, when I started attending conferences, uh, that are focused on coffee, you are surrounded by a real coffee
connoisseur.
Uh, I mean, I, I, I remember going to one of the first meetings, uh, at, uh, the Specialty Coffee Association coffee, uh, I mean, uh, conference,
uh, and you're in this meeting because obviously you go to conference not just to go to the trade show or, you know, attend presentation, but also you take advantage
of having all these people at the same place at the same time to have meetings.
So we would, uh, go to this conference and, and have several meetings and with the, uh, coffee company executive or, or other researchers, and literally
in the middle of the meeting you see these people opening their bag and they start take out their coffee grinder, and they, they plug in their, their kettle, uh,
in the wall.
(chuckles) So they start w- uh, you know, uh, heating up their water, and they literally start preparing their coffee, uh, right there in, in, the conference, uh, uh, at
the, the me- in the meeting.
So you definitely start thinking about, okay, maybe (chuckles) I should revisit the way I, I drink my coffee.
Indeed, you become, um...
first you really start appreciating high-quality coffee, because if the coffee is good, you literally don't have to add, uh, any sugar or any
creamer or milk or whatever.
You just drink it straight, and that's really how you can evaluate, uh, the quality of coffee.
And this is done, again, routinely by this, uh, coffee buyers, coffee expert when they evaluate, uh, specific lots of coffee.
So, uh, once you get used to, you taste the good coffee, then you're kind of hooked to say, "Okay, uh, I do see a difference between, you know,
the regular store brand, uh, uh, pre-ground coffee and something that's, uh, high quality specialty coffee that is ground right,
right before brewing."
And then, uh, you know, you kind of have to...
you...
not kind of, but you, you appreciate it and you're, you, you become a little bit more refined.
So yes, but in so long answer to, to your- Yeah question, I have learned how to, um, drink better coffee.
Ping Yu: (laughs) Well, the, the reason why I ask you is because, well, I apparently didn't, uh, directly, uh, associate with any of those, uh, research I have done, but I
happen to be- The roommate of one of your beloved, uh, PhD students, Sarah.
And so we lived together for three years back in, uh, Texas A&M, and she has a specific way to drink coffee, and I kind of observed that.
And then...
Because before I drank instant coffee with those, like- Mm pre-ground coffees- and I...
the quality of that is not, you know, (laughs) comparable to- No, I know better coffee beans.
So I kind of have to add a lot of sugar and milk to make it tasteable.
But right now...
But after that, I start to, you know, um, get some sense of, like, appreciate better coffee beans and coffees.
And, and now I, I, for all the coffee that I drink, at least at home, I don't need to add any sugar.
And sometimes now I just add, uh, some little bit milk just to do the art that I li- (laughs) like.
Leo Lombardini: Interesting.
Ping Yu: do like the, the latte art.
Leo Lombardini: Nice.
Ping Yu: Uh, just for, for fun.
But, um, it definitely changed the way that I look at coffee, uh, myself.
(upbeat music) So, um, with the coffee, it all comes from the coffee plant, and you briefly mentioned some of the big players worldwide, um,
to produce coffee.
Can you show us the big picture of, like, where those coffee plants and those coffee are produced worldwide, and, uh, they...
starting from the coffee plant itself?
Leo Lombardini: Yes.
Um, so the coffee plant, uh, uh, most of the coffee comes from Coffea arabica.
Uh, the majority of the coffee we drink is, certainly specialty coffee, comes from the Coffea arabica species, which is one of 133
species there in the Coffea genus.
Okay?
So 133, most of them are actually from the, um, African, uh, continent.
They're all native to Africa.
But, uh, uh, actually one important spaces, uh, uh, place for, for Coffea species is Madagascar.
Madagascar is, has 67 of the 133 species of coffee.
Now, uh, I talk about this 133 species, but the ones that are cultivated, actually it's only about three really.
So it's Coffea arabica, which supplies about 65% of the, um, coffee that is consumed in the world.
Coffea canephora, which is known as Robusta, which is pretty much the remaining 35.
Uh, uh, then there's a third one, is Coffea liberica, uh, which is really less than 1%, and it's only consumed locally.
There's not a market for it.
The reason why Arabica is, uh, the most common one is definitely because of the quality, is the mildest of all the Coffea.
The other ones have, uh, either a higher content of caffeine, which you think, oh, great, I get a, you know, (laughs) a bigger boost, but, uh, it's also associated
with bitterness.
Um, you know, the higher content of caffeine, uh, is not, does- doesn't necessarily translate into, um, a better cup quality.
So yeah, you asked me where they, uh, coming from.
As I mentioned, the Coffea is pretty much the African continent.
Obviously, Coffea arabica is from what is now Ethiopia, is, um, that's where it came from.
So, you know, sometimes we, especially for people that don't, are not familiar with coffee production, you think about, oh, you know, Colombian coffee or Guatemalan coffee, Brazilian coffee.
But if you think about it, uh, none of these countries, uh, actually, um, had coffee to begin with.
It was all introduced, uh, between the late 1700 and mid 1800 as, uh, an additional source of, uh, obviously, uh, income and, uh,
because once they realized that it was, coffee was actually growing well, they, uh, started replacing existing crops or maybe, uh, cutting down forests,
uh, unfortunately, to grow coffee.
So that's, uh, um...
And still today, you know, Brazil is the largest, uh, coffee producer in the world.
Produces about, you know, one-third if I'm not wrong.
I don't have the numbers, uh, but, uh, maybe even more actually.
So, uh, second to, uh, Brazil is, uh, actually Vietnam is the second largest producer of coffee, but mainly Robusta, so the Coffea canephora.
So we usually don't drink Vietnam coffee because, again, it's, uh, used to produce Robusta or, uh, Coffea canephora.
And Coffea canephora, uh, is
almost, uh, never drank as a pure coffee, uh, but, uh, it is blended with, uh, with the Arabica for kind of inferior blends
or, or espresso blends and things like that.
Ping Yu: Um, are you saying that if people want to, for instance, kind of get a taste of better coffee, if they go to a grocery store, they just need to
look for Ethiopia coffee beans instead of...
Leo Lombardini: It doesn't have to be necessarily coming from Ethiopia.
Ethiopia coffee is definitely high quality most of the time.
Um, coffee is a, is a major, uh, contributor to Ethiopian, uh, um, economy.
Um- Mm-hmm huge component of their, uh, GDP, uh, because they export literally millions of pounds every year.
Uh, and it's definitely high quality.
But you can, you can get very high quality coffee from Central America, for example.
So, you know, Colombia and Panama, Guatemala, Costa Rica, just to name a few.
Honduras, El Salvador.
(laughs) I have to be careful 'cause I have s- so many colleagues and, and friends from all those countries.
I don't wanna forget them.
(laughs) I don't wanna forget their countries.
(laughs) As I...
Ping Yu: As you're, like, naming those countries, I like- Yeah yeah- Like, I will not forget- Nicaragua.
Leo Lombardini: (laughs) Mexico.
Ping Yu: Yeah.
(upbeat music)
So, um, basically coffee, uh, as a plant, and, uh, it grows mainly in those tropical areas where they provide, um, the
environmental conditions for them to survive.
But when we talk about that, what kind of environmental conditions does, does the coffee plant really need to survive, and what ki- does
those environment conditions play a role in determining the quality of the coffee down the road?
Leo Lombardini: Yes, that's a very good question, and you are correct.
The...
obviously, just like all plants, there are some conditions that are ideal for, uh, the, the particular species to thrive.
In case, I'm just gonna focus on the two, Coffea arabica and Coffea canephora.
The two species are quite different in terms of their, uh, ecological preferences, uh, um, and growing condition.
Because, uh, Coffea arabica, uh, evolved or came from the western highlands of Ethiopia, which is, uh, mountainous,
uh, mist- uh, you know, uh, cloud forest type of, uh, environment.
So definitely higher altitude, uh, frequent, um, cloudy days, and never too hot, and that's really...
these are the conditions where the, uh, Arabica coffee thrives.
So, um, temperatures, let's say, averaging between 70 and 80 degrees undercover, because this is a, a, a shade plant that
evolved, uh, under the cover of larger trees in the forest.
So this is why shade-grown, mountain-grown Arabica coffee is really where you can get the highest quality.
Even though it might be the same identical species genetically, you know, or clonally propagated, obviously, the...
it would develop a different coffee and the chemical structure of the fruits, the seeds, actually.
Because maybe not everybody knows that the coffee beans is actually the seed of the plant- Yes which of course turns into the quality of the brewed coffee.
Uh, in case of Coffea canephora, Robusta, actually, uh, Robusta comes from a much, much larger geographical region, which is pretty
much all equatorial Africa.
So you find, uh, um, native Robusta plants all the way from West Africa, um, but again, all equatorial.
So, but typically in lowlands or not in the mountains like Arabica.
So that's the reason why, uh, Robusta coffee can...
the, the Robusta species, the canephora species can tolerate higher temperature.
But also one of the reasons why it's a lot more resistant to pests and diseases than the Arabica is because it comes from a much, uh, larger, uh, geographical
region that you can find different, uh, ecotypes or, or plants that have been exposed to, uh, diseases and, uh, um,
insects.
Uh, you know, it's a much broader genetic pool than the Arabica, which only come from a very, very small region, so that's a lot of also a kind of
inbreeding that had to do with it.
Uh, so, um, Arabica is actually the...
a lot of the current, uh, the modern varieties that we have have a little bit of Robusta genes in it because of hybridization that has helped
increase resistant in the Arabica, uh, to diseases and pests, so.
Ping Yu: Yeah.
And, and, and, um, I would assume that folks out there who drink coffee day in, every day, they may not have the privilege like me, uh, actually seeing
a coffee plant in the hou- in the house.
'Cause, uh, I was able to see the coffee plant producing flower, and I was quite surprised to see how tiny little, like, white
flowers, like, scattered around the, the, the plant.
Again, the coffee plant, it's a tropical plant, and so you can imagine the leaves are pretty big and then glowy.
And compared to the glowy, showy, uh, leaves, those tiny little, uh, flowers are, like, you know, pretty small.
But then I w- I, I was looking at them like, "Oh my gosh, all those little tiny flowers turn into the gr- the coffee beans that we consume
so much, uh, around the world."
It just surprised me.
A- and I know that botanic gardens, at least in Atlan- Atlanta Botanic Garden, in the tropical room or the greenhouse, they have some,
one or two coffee plants to, for people to look at.
So next time if you go there, check them out, and, uh, then you probably, it'll, um, change your perception of drinking coffee next morning.
(upbeat music) (laughs) So we talk about a lot of plant, the coffee plant itself, but can you give us a overview
of, well, walk us through of how the coffee,
from the coffee plant all the way to become like, or be- in the cup.
Can you just walk Mm-hmm through the whole process?
Leo Lombardini: Yes.
I'll have to be quick, 'cause obviously there's several steps that take place from the field to the cup.
Uh, let's start just, uh, a little bit before harvest.
Uh, I just wanna give a brief, a brief introduction on, on how coffee, uh, the coffee plant grows.
Uh, it's, it's, it's considered a shrub or a small-sized tree.
And, um, it takes about, uh, between two and three years for the plants to develop the first flowers that you just mentioned.
And then it continue producing for several years, 15, 20, 30.
Um, but obviously for commercial purposes, uh, you need to, at some point, you either need to prune it back, um, so that the, the plant doesn't
become too big, which will become very difficult to harvest, but also to kind of rejuvenate, uh, a lot of the tissues.
So there's several, uh, growers that, you know, they cut it pretty much to the stump, at the stump level and let it re- you know, regrow and, uh, kind
of rejuvenate.
Ping Yu: I wish we could do the same too.
(laughs) We could just cut, cut a limb and then, uh, you know, get, get new, younger, stronger.
Leo Lombardini: (laughs) But anyway.
Ping Yu: Cut, cut our hair.
Leo Lombardini: Right.
(laughs) So, um, so after a coffee is harvested is, uh, is a very delicate, uh, process because, um, mm, for
those, uh, who are listening that have never, uh, seen a coffee fruit, uh, it's, it's very similar to a cherry.
In fact, we also talk about coffee cherry.
So you have, uh, um, the seeds, which in case of coffee, unlike a cherry, the cherry only has one, one seed, one pit, but the coffee plant, um, mm,
has, uh, two.
So there are two seeds facing each other, and that's why when you look at a coffee bean, one side is flat, one side is, uh, is, uh, curved because
the two flat sides, they face each other.
So they have two, two seeds, uh, next to each other, and then everything is surrounded by a pulp.
And this process has to be done immediately after harvest.
So you have to find ways to, to process the seeds very quickly, because otherwise, this pulp, obviously, you think about it, you have a, a, a fl- a, a
tissue, a plant tissue that is, is rich in sugar, uh, very watery, and if you let it sit there, especially after it's been bruised because of, uh, harvesting,
it start rotting, okay, and fermenting, which would be obviously a disastrous for the quality of the coffee.
So it has to be processed immediately.
And without getting into too many details, but, uh, this can be done in at least three main ways, okay?
One, it could be you take the, the fruits, you harvest the fruit with the, with the pulp, and you immediately put them on a, on a...
Usually, it's done in concrete patios in the sun to let it dry, okay?
And, uh, uh, this, in this way, the, um, obviously it ha- has to be a pretty, um, thin layer, you know, about a couple inches, maybe less, uh,
so that, uh, all the coffee, uh, fruits, they start drying.
And this is a process that can take, uh, you know, uh, two, three weeks, depending on the weather.
So the, the pulp, the fleshy part starts drying out, and it dries on the seeds.
And this is, uh, confers this, uh, particular flavor, uh, characteristics to the coffee that will be brewed after that.
This is called natural processing, okay?
And it's typical in those countries where, um, there's, they don't have a lot of access to water.
For example, Yemen is a big producer of coffee or even Af- other African countries.
So it can be, again, the, the coffee fruits are laid either on, um, raised beds or concrete patios where they dry.
The other, uh, process, uh, which is called honey processed, what they do, they immediately run the coffee fruit through a depulper that removes the pulp
and separates the pulp from the, from the, uh, seeds.
And then the seeds, which are covered by, uh, a mucilage, which is actually a pectin, just like the one that we use for, you know, canning, uh, making jams,
uh, then it's laid in the sun to dry, okay?
This is called a honey processing.
And then the third process, which is definitely the most common one, is called washed coffee.
Um, so the,
the pulp are immediately removed from the seeds, and then the seeds with the mu- mucilage on top actually get, uh, placed in tanks, uh, where they
cover with water.
And so they actually, uh, soak in, water for a period between 24 and 48 hours, and they undergo, uh, a fermentation process
in which the yeasts that are present naturally, uh, in some cases, they are actually added, uh, in, on the fruit.
They break down this mucilage, and by doing this, when the seeds are underwater, they also transform the chemistry of the beans.
Uh, so after ei- uh, whatever process, uh, uh, you do, at some point, obviously the, uh, the seeds have to be dried to about
10 to 12% to make sure that, uh, the seed is no longer viable.
It's dead, okay?
Uh, so it doesn't germinate, but also to prevent spoilage, okay?
So there's an additional drying, which is done either on the patios and under the sun or in, in a, a dryer with heaters.
And then at that point, the coffee is ready to be s- uh, bagged and, uh, shipped.
Now, for the...
You know, this is, again, this might be a little bit complicated to follow, but for the, the coffee that was processed naturally, the one that still had the, the
dry pulp attached, now there's another, uh, step that has to be, uh, this dried pulp has to be, uh, removed.
So there's machines to, uh, remove the, the dry skin and then remove the parchment so that, uh, they can also be, you know, bagged and then shipped.
So in a nutshell, all this is happening in the producing country, okay, close to, as close as possible to the farms, because as I said, this has to, this
process, the post-harvest process has to be, uh, started as soon as possible.
Now, after the, the seeds or the coffee beans, at this point we can call them coffee beans, are in the 60, 60-kilo bag, they can be stored
locally, but also they can be shipped on the, obviously the shipping containers all over the world.
They can reach their destination, whether it's Norway or, you know, whatever, uh, that point on this big, obviously, uh, ships that can take it all over the world.
So it's, it's a lot of work, and this is just, just to get to destination, because once it gets to destination, then you have, it's stored again in warehouses
And at that point, it's distributed to the roasters, because, uh, um, yeah, g- coffee is shipped when it's still green, okay?
Not, uh, not green meaning, you know, like green beans, um, meaning they're not roasted.
Uh, they look kinda greenish, and they don't taste, they don't smell anything like coffee.
Um, it actually, if you put a green coffee bean in your mouth, it, uh, it's very hard, first of all, but also it's, it's got a kinda grassy flavor.
Uh, so only after roasting is when you start getting all the, the aroma and the flavor characteristics that are typical of
coffee.
Ping Yu: So, um, and then of course, after it's roasted, it's- And, uh, when, when you were describing the process of how coffee has been...
or the post-harvest process of the coffee, uh, being treated, I was...
I, I wanted to kinda rephrase the, the processing in a, a different way, where people would, uh, vividly, visually can imagine the
whole process.
Here's what I was thinking while you were describing the whole process.
I was thinking there's three ways for coffee being produced after harvest.
And so those are the three ways of producing coffee, and then after that, it all packed and shipped to the destination, and for to people can start roasting it.
(instrumental music) But s- in terms of roast, I know different...
there are three main way of roasting.
Leo Lombardini: Uh- Light not really.
I mean, there's, uh- Okay the roasting is, uh, is pretty much one, one procedure.
Uh, you have this big roaster.
Mo- many of them are a drum roa- called drum roasters, which is, uh, imagine a, a dryer, like the one that you, you, you have house for, uh, clothes.
It's the same concept.
You have a, a source of, uh, of heat, which is, uh, either generated by gas or electricity, and, uh, uh, the, the main difference with the clothes,
uh, dryer is the temperature (laughs) is a lot higher.
Uh, it gets to about 400, uh, degrees Fahrenheit for coffee.
And so there, uh, once the coffee, the green coffee beans are dumped or, uh, in the dryer, you can...
or the, the roaster, the, the head roaster can play with two variables, uh, temperature and time.
So you can have, uh, a lower temperature, and you keep the beans, uh, longer in the dryer.
And when I say longer, we're talking about between, let's say, 18 and 20, 21, 22 minutes, okay?
So each cycle, uh, is about that, that long.
So again, you, you keep the temperature a little bit lower, but high enough that you still have a, a roasting process.
You don't wanna have a, a temperature, let's say, of 300 degrees, because you would just barely bake, uh, you know, the, the...
You wouldn't, it wouldn't trigger the chemical transformation.
So, or you can decide to have, uh, a higher temperature for a shorter period of time.
It should really be,
how do you like your coffee roasted, okay?
And of this changes, uh, um, any, you know, any coffee shop, any coffee roaster would have, uh, a target, uh, roasting level, which
is, uh, based on their preference, uh, based on, on their, customers, uh, based on what they're trying to do.
For a, a large roaster, the largest roaster in the world is probably Starbucks, because they source their coffee from, the coffee from
so many different farms ye- around the world, from different varieties, what do they do to make sure that if you go to a coffee shop and you order, let's
say, a Verona, uh, blend, it always tastes like a Verona blend?
What they do, they tend to over-roast a little bit.
So that's really w- the reason why if you go to a Starbucks, the, their coffees is, is always on the, on the, kind of a, again, over-roasted,
kind of a charry, uh, uh, burnt.
Because by doing this, they can...
That's the only way they can put all this, uh, different varieties and different origins together and make sure that the Verona blend always tastes pretty much like the Verona
blend.
But a small coffee shop can afford to, um, to roast, like, a medium roast, which is considered ideally to really savor the quality,
because, uh, you know, they, you know, they have, uh, they use smaller, um, they source it from smaller farms.
Or if one year they say, "We don't have this blend," because, you know, that farm had a, um, a disease outbreak or whatever, they can always replace it with
another one, you know, and just inform their customers.
So there, all those, those, you know, business decisions that, that really drive roasting.
But, uh, yeah, as I say, it's a fairly simple process.
Uh, um, uh, the operator or the roaster or the owner decide how they want to, you know, roast their coffee based on their preference and their customer's preference.
But, um, yeah, that's, uh, that's about it.
Ping Yu: But what, what is the difference between, let's say, light, medium, and dark roasted coffee?
Leo Lombardini: It, it's, uh, I think- Again, it's a combination of time, uh, the time that those beans stay in the, in the roaster, and the temperature So basic- What, what,
Ping Yu: what- Yeah what, what would that lead to the taste of the coffee?
Leo Lombardini: Oh, um, that's, uh, it definitely changes because, uh, uh, you can, um, uh, really follow...
And of course, there's been research done, but, uh, the, um, one thing that does not change is the caffeine content.
Caffeine is actually present in the beans already when they're green, because caffeine isn't...
Why does the coffee plant and other, uh...
Caffeine is not only produced by the coffee plant mainly, but there are others.
It is a cof- Caffeine is an alkaloid that is used as a natural deterrent against pest and diseases.
Okay?
So that's present in the plant to begin with, and it's present in the leaves, but mostly in the seeds.
Because, uh, the...
What is the, the purpose of every living organism on this planet is to reproduce.
So obviously, uh, it's in the, the plant's interest to pack those seeds with caffeine so they will less likely be attacked by, uh, insects and, uh, um,
diseases.
Okay?
So you have this caffeine that's in, uh, in the bean.
It's about one, 1.5% of the dry content of a coffee bean, so it's significant.
So that caffeine content does not change during roasting, luckily for us, because caffeine is pretty stable at high temperature.
But what changes is, for example, the level of acidity.
Uh, acidity is actually a good trait, uh, for coffee.
The high, uh...
You usually, you, you have, the best quality coffees are the ones that have a high acidity, uh, which is counterintuitive.
It's like, wait a minute, you know?
If you think about, let's say, you know, orange juice or lemon juice, like, the, the more acid it is, like, the, might, you know, might be more, more bitter.
But, uh, for coffees, it's the opposite.
So the longer you keep those beans in the roaster, the lower the acidity, uh, of the brewed coffee will become.
So that also tells you that the quality of the brewed coffee is gonna be inferior.
For coffees, they're, uh, roasted, let's say, uh, uh, a French roast or even a, uh, an Italian roast, which is the extreme really before it, it burns.
(laughs) Um, so for light to medium coffee is really when you can savor all the properties, uh, that
are in, in that cup.
So that's why that's, that's the one that is recommended if you're really trying to assess the quality of a coffee.
Ping Yu: So basically, the acidity does not have something to do with the time.
It's more, um, have something...
It's more, uh, related to the time The degree of roasting Okay Yes.
Leo Lombardini: Yeah, the degree, which again could be, you can have a, a highly, uh, you know, a dark roasted or French roasted coffee bean by increasing the temperature, keeping
it high for a shorter period of time or, or reducing a little bit, like keep it, keep it...
Imagine baking a cake.
I mean, you could bake a cake, uh, instead of if the recipe says, uh, 20 minutes at 400 degrees, you could say, well, I could put it, uh, 480
and keep it for 10.
Ping Yu: Mm-hmm.
Leo Lombardini: Or you could keep it at, uh, um, you know, 350 for 30 minutes, but are the three cakes gonna be the same?
Probably not, because if you- do it at, at 480 or whatever I said for 10 minutes, most likely the outside is gonna be burnt- Yeah but the inside is
not, and maybe the, the opposite is gonna be for the one that you keep the longest.
It might be too dry, you know?
So that's, that's really a lot of playing.
Uh, and, and what roasters do when they get a new batch of coffee, maybe a variety they had never, uh, used before or maybe a farm that they haven't
bought from before, what they do, they, they just do a little scientific experiment.
They take a batch and they roast it, and of course, they would not use the big roaster to play with.
They are small roasters.
Like, uh, you can put, you know, like a benchtop that only do, let's say 200 grams, 300 grams, or even less, and you play with it.
You play with all this, and then at the end, you, you sample, you try the cup, and you say, "Okay, that's the one I want."
So at that point, you develop your recipe and you transfer it to the big roaster.
Ping Yu: (upbeat music) So for listeners who, you know, have listened to this episode, what is...
How...
What kind of message do you wanna give to the listeners, uh, who is a daily coffee drinker?
Uh, let's say they're going to drink coffee tomorrow, what, what should they remember about coffee?
Leo Lombardini: One thing that I, that I could probably recommend is next time you, you buy, uh, a coffee, um, in a bag, look at the package.
Um, and before you buy one, just try to, um, educate yourself, uh, on whether the package says, first, you know, does it say 100% Arabica,
which already tells you something.
Because, uh, there are a lot of coffees out there that they don't say.
They just say 100% coffee.
If they say 100% coffee, that means that there's some Robusta in it.
Okay?
So that's definitely gonna change.
Also, see if it says, uh, um, if it specifies the country where it, where the coffee's from.
Uh, so maybe next time you can compare two different countries.
But of course, uh, um, you know, it may be...
You, you cannot really compare two countries, 'cause for example, you can go, you could get some, uh, you know, from the store medium roast, uh, Ethiopian, and then you
have a dark roast Guatemalan.
So when you compare them, do you really compare the country or do you compare the roast level?
Ping Yu: Yeah.
(laughs) So- It's kind of like a experiment.
Leo Lombardini: (laughs) Yeah, exactly.
You understand very well.
Ping Yu: Yeah.
Leo Lombardini: You're, you're obviously a, a scientist.
So but first of all, again, educate yourself.
But also, if you go to, uh, a coffee shop that is, you know, is not like a, a large chain, you know, like a, a chain, try to see
if the barista knows, mm, a little bit about coffee.
Ask questions, or you know, "Do you have different origins?
Do you have different...
How do you..."
And unfortunately, in most cases, uh, um, you know, the employees are just- I don't want to say students because they're students that are very educated, but maybe they just
need a job.
So they might not know.
But they might actually trigger their curiosity, and next time they see their supervisor, they...
maybe they'll ask.
They say, "Oh, you know, a customer asked me, you know, where do we get our coffees?
You know, what, what can you tell me more about it, you know?"
So a- again, educate.
There's so much work behind a cup of coffee, and so much sweat, uh, and time spent in the field, just like for all horticulture crops.
Never forget that, uh, behind anything we eat, there's a farmer, uh, whether it's a steak or, uh, you know, an orange, uh, that has spent a lot of time
in the field, uh, really taking time away from their family, from, you know, watching TV or whatever, just because of they're very passionate what they do.
And let's never forget that we should always, uh, um, remember about- Yeah our farmers and support them.
Ping Yu: Yeah.
A- and all those, again, it's the same, uh, concept where the information that I keep, uh, sending out, uh, uh, repeatedly.
Just appreciate what you have, because everything that you see daily, day in and day out, is tons of work for...
from other people, especially in horticulture world.
Uh, and I know Leo has bec- has- is a very- is a great researcher himself, but in addition to that, he's also a very good boss
and great, uh, admin, or department head.
And, and since you joined UGA, you have, I don't know, developed and started, initiated many, uh, wonderful programs and, uh, activities.
But what is your next excitement with your role at UGA?
Leo Lombardini: Ooh.
(laughs) Well, th- first of all, thank you.
Uh, I'm, I'm glad that you think I'm a good, uh, supervisor, administrator.
Hopefully this is not just for the show.
Ping Yu: (laughs) No, no, no, you are.
are.
Leo Lombardini: thank you.
Um, I, I think our, our department, uh, is in a very good, uh, state right now.
I'm proud to say that in six years, uh, we added s- uh, 18 new faculty members, uh, including you, uh, which, uh, bring a
lot of energy, a lot of new ideas.
There's nothing better than, as a supervisor, to surround yourself with the people that are smarter and better than you, because they make you look good.
(laughs) So if you all are doing well and are successful, it's very easy for me to brag about the department and go to my supervisor when I have
to provide reports and everything else, because, uh, you guys make me look good.
So that's really, at this point, my, my goal, to make sure that everybody has access to the resource that they need, at least.
You know, obviously we all would like to have maybe a better lab or a larger greenhouse or new vehicles.
We cannot do it all, but at least have enough that we can sustain high-quality programs and really help, uh, Georgia growers and, and, you know, even
outside of Georgia, uh, the state, the, the country and internationally.
So that's really, um, all.
And, uh, also, I think we all have a mission, all of us in horticulture, to make sure we continue promote horticulture, uh, as a discipline, because,
um, um, many of our students don't, uh, um...
I am talking about undergraduate students.
Uh, they don't, uh, discover us until they're already at the university and they stumble, uh, upon a class or a, a roommate.
They, uh, they describe what horticulture is, and then they, they come to us and they love it, and they never leave, uh, once they come with us, because, uh,
that's really, "My gosh, this is exactly what I wanted to do."
And it's so therapeutic working with plants.
Um, and, uh, uh, so that's really what we're gonna continue doing, make sure that we advocate for our, uh, industry and our discipline.
Ping Yu: Yeah.
Uh, I think that's one of the reasons or one of the missions for the podcast and a lot of other activities.
Uh, we want to, deliver the message to a larger audience, to the public, say
horticulture is a thing and it's a fun thing.
So people needs to, um, take a serious look at us, and hopefully we, um, lure more horti- future horticulturists to our world.
Uh, so with that in mind, if people wants to find more about horticulture in general and/or follow up on some of the work that you have done in the
past or in the future, where do you recommend them go and look for?
Leo Lombardini: Yeah, certainly.
Uh, obviously our, our website is the, uh, the easiest, uh, uh, way to, um, learn more about our department, uh, and, uh, all the faculty, including you,
what they're doing.
Or, uh, obviously they can, uh, Google horticulture UGA or go to hort.caes.uga.edu.
Uh, over there you can- they can find links to all the faculty profiles, our academic programs.
And, um, uh, yeah.
Um, I also have a...
You know, we try to put out a newsletter at least a couple times a year.
Um, so all those that are connected to UGA can get copy of that.
It's obviously- Yeah electronic.
Ping Yu: And I'll put all the link, uh, out there in the show notes so people can find the information, uh, easy, and they can- I can also put your, um,
profile there if they want to have a direct contact to you about potential opportunities down the road.
But, uh, thank you, Leo, for taking time of, uh, out of your busy schedule to talk with us and educate us on coffee, and show us all those wonderful
things that going on with, uh, within UGA, and I, I really appreciate that.
Leo Lombardini: Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for the opportunity.
It's been a pleasure.
Ping Yu: (outro jingle) Conversation like this only happen when you support the show.
For more information and find ways to support us, please go to bandbpod.com, bandbpod.com.
If you like what you are hearing, spread the word and share this podcast with the people you love.
Make sure you hit that, uh, subscription button and give a review for the podcast.
And as always, go check out the show notes to learn more about this topic and other topics we featured on the show at bandbpod.com.
Thank you for listening.
Till the next time, stay healthy and go plants.
(outro jingle)