1
00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:05,820
Ping Yu: (on-hold music) Well, hello, everyone.

2
00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:07,920
Welcome to the Blooms and Beyond podcast.

3
00:00:08,040 --> 00:00:12,660
A podcast that uncovers plant history, culture, and management through the lens of science.

4
00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:14,680
I'm your host, Dr. Ping Yu.

5
00:00:14,940 --> 00:00:16,100
Uh, how's everyone doing today?

6
00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:26,820
I am doing great because here I have one of my favorite people, my, uh, dear horticulturist colleagues and friends, and also my

7
00:00:26,900 --> 00:00:32,040
boss, Dr. Leo Leonardo, uh, Lombardini, here with me today on the show.

8
00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:37,000
and we're going to talk about one of the most fun and exciting topics, coffee.

9
00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:45,740
I know folks out there who's listening to this episode, m- many of you may like me, who has to start my day with a cup of coffee.

10
00:00:46,230 --> 00:00:56,220
And our speaker today is an expert on coffee with many years of research experience and, of course, tons of fascinating stories and a lot of scientific knowledge, uh, to

11
00:00:56,340 --> 00:01:00,500
share today and to help us understand the coffee in a different level.

12
00:01:00,940 --> 00:01:03,260
So I don't want to steal any more thunder from our speaker today.

13
00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:04,760
Let's just jump right into it.

14
00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,960
Without further ado, here is my conversation with Dr. Leo Lombardini.

15
00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:10,040
I hope you enjoy it.

16
00:01:10,259 --> 00:01:16,980
(on-hold music) So, uh, hey, uh, Leo, welcome to the podcast.

17
00:01:17,320 --> 00:01:17,620
Yes.

18
00:01:17,700 --> 00:01:19,899
But first, let's start off with the introduction.

19
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,000
Can you tell our audience a little bit about who you are and what you do?

20
00:01:24,140 --> 00:01:24,900
Leo Lombardini: Yes, of course.

21
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,820
Uh, it's my pleasure, and thank you so much for the invitation.

22
00:01:27,980 --> 00:01:30,420
Uh, I'm very excited about this opportunity.

23
00:01:30,460 --> 00:01:33,000
Uh, my name is, uh, Leo Leonardo Lombardini.

24
00:01:33,620 --> 00:01:38,080
I am currently the head of the Horticulture Department here at the University of Georgia.

25
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,960
I've had this position since two thousand nineteen.

26
00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:43,160
I'm a native Italian.

27
00:01:43,380 --> 00:01:51,780
I grew up in Tuscany, grew up in Florence, uh, and then, uh, I came to the United States, uh, long time ago, thirty years ago, to work on my

28
00:01:51,820 --> 00:01:56,560
PhD, uh, Michigan State University, and then moved around the country a lot.

29
00:01:57,180 --> 00:01:59,260
I spent a lot of time at Texas A&M, just like you.

30
00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:05,220
Uh, that's where we met, uh, and became very, very acquainted and, and close.

31
00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,840
And then, of course, uh, even more so since you joined UGA.

32
00:02:08,979 --> 00:02:10,479
So it's, uh, it's a pleasure.

33
00:02:10,500 --> 00:02:14,810
It's all full circle and, uh, all here for the love of horticulture.

34
00:02:16,100 --> 00:02:16,740
Ping Yu: Yeah.

35
00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:25,400
A- and I still remember vividly when I was a grad student at Texas A&M attending the plant physiology class when you were lecturing, and one of your...

36
00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:32,920
uh, two of your students, PhD students, are actually a very good friend of- a, a very, um, close friend me, of mine.

37
00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:41,420
It's kind of how, well, exciting and, uh, magical how we kind of circle back (laughs) working for the same department.

38
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:42,480
But, um,

39
00:02:43,740 --> 00:02:50,920
y- as you mentioned, you grew up in, in, Italy and, uh, but what first sparked your interest in horticulture?

40
00:02:51,000 --> 00:03:00,440
Are you seeing yourself as a nature kid when you grew up, or how, how did this come to your radar and, well, become one of your interest or own

41
00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:05,340
when you grew up, or you kind of, you know, stumble through to this trajectory?

42
00:03:06,460 --> 00:03:06,780
Leo Lombardini: Yes.

43
00:03:07,020 --> 00:03:09,300
Uh, I grew up in the city, uh, in Florence.

44
00:03:09,340 --> 00:03:14,360
So I did not come from, uh, um, a family that was involved in agriculture.

45
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:25,960
Uh, but I attribute my interest, uh, as a young kid to the fact that my parents, uh, they bought a, very old, farmhouse in Tuscany

46
00:03:26,060 --> 00:03:29,760
in the late sixties and, um, fixed it up.

47
00:03:29,820 --> 00:03:38,350
And one of the things that they did was, uh, actually resurrect, uh, an abandoned, uh, vineyard and, uh, olive trees.

48
00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:47,800
So with a lot of, uh, sweat and hard work and help with, uh, you know, from family, extended family to have pruning days or harvest days, uh, they were

49
00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:57,400
able to, again, resurrect this, uh, uh, vineyard, and they would start making wine, you know, learning from, from scratch by asking around and trial and error.

50
00:03:57,540 --> 00:04:06,140
And I was there as a little kid, uh, uh, helping, uh, harvest and see how the grape juice turned into wine.

51
00:04:06,180 --> 00:04:08,420
And of course, I would not try.

52
00:04:08,580 --> 00:04:11,200
Well, maybe I did, but (laughs) we don't have to say.

53
00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:20,660
Uh, and that's, uh, also spending a lot of weekends and summers in this, uh, um, house, which is still in the family, actually, extended family.

54
00:04:20,740 --> 00:04:23,420
My, um, cousins, uh, own it now.

55
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:32,280
But, um, the summers were, uh, days of, uh, finding ways to stay engaged and s- stay busy.

56
00:04:32,340 --> 00:04:35,390
This was pre-video games, uh, pre-computers.

57
00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:41,340
So I had to find things, uh, to entertain myself, uh, in...

58
00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:49,420
They had to do with nature, whether it was, uh, planting trees or playing with the chicken and, and I think that's really what's, uh, triggered the interest in, in

59
00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:56,440
plants and observe and grow and develop and, and give fruits and vegetables and all that.

60
00:04:57,420 --> 00:04:58,080
Ping Yu: Yeah, yeah.

61
00:04:58,110 --> 00:05:05,140
And then to-- so do you-- does your family who still own the, uh, the property, do they still grow grapes and make wine?

62
00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:06,160
Leo Lombardini: Yes, they still do.

63
00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:06,580
Ping Yu: Mm-hmm.

64
00:05:07,100 --> 00:05:07,320
Leo Lombardini: Yes.

65
00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:07,900
Ping Yu: Wow.

66
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:08,400
That's...

67
00:05:08,540 --> 00:05:08,720
Wow.

68
00:05:08,780 --> 00:05:09,500
How many years?

69
00:05:09,580 --> 00:05:10,800
It's just become Yeah.

70
00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:15,720
Leo Lombardini: It's been, uh, since the seventies, since the, you know, early se- very early seventies.

71
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:17,280
So it's been- So- Yeah.

72
00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,100
Ping Yu: So it's becoming a family tradition where- Mm-hmm the legacy that carried on.

73
00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:23,060
Leo Lombardini: That's right.

74
00:05:24,140 --> 00:05:34,700
Ping Yu: Uh, so I know that you have been worked with so many different plants yourself, coffee included, and, um, pecan, and now you're a department head, uh, overseeing

75
00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,100
all those horticulture crops.

76
00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:41,420
Over all those-- among all those plants, and do you have a favorite, and why?

77
00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:53,520
Leo Lombardini: Yeah, uh, I really like, uh, actually, uh, pecan is a very interesting species that I became very attached to, not only because I, I studied it for

78
00:05:53,740 --> 00:06:02,180
a, good 15 years, but, uh, also because it's one of those, um, uh, plants that is very...

79
00:06:02,220 --> 00:06:08,480
The history of cultivation, but precedes actually the arrival of the Europeans.

80
00:06:08,540 --> 00:06:19,000
This is a, a, species that is native to the North American continent, and it had a very, very important, uh, um, uh, role and for Native Americans,

81
00:06:19,140 --> 00:06:29,630
uh, because it was a good, uh, source of, uh, of food, especially during winter months, uh, because the nuts obviously were harvested and, and stored and

82
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:36,180
a lot of things were made with this, uh, with these nuts, uh, which, uh, are very high in fat.

83
00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:40,960
So they were a very important source of energy and food for Native Americans.

84
00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:51,140
Uh, um, and, uh, so I think I like that, that, you know, this majestic, uh, tree that is really a beautiful tree also, uh,

85
00:06:51,220 --> 00:06:56,480
had such a, uh, an importance for Native Americans, but also for, um, animals.

86
00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:06,620
Think about, uh, how much energy it provides to squirrels and birds and crows and others, uh, because, uh, it helps them sustain throughout the winter.

87
00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:08,370
So I, I really like that.

88
00:07:08,420 --> 00:07:11,280
And I kind of compare that to, to the chestnut tree.

89
00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:18,160
Uh, chestnuts is a very important species in, uh, in Europe, uh, at least the European chestnut I'm talking about.

90
00:07:18,580 --> 00:07:28,620
And that's because also just like the pecan is, uh, is still, uh, harvested from the wild and, uh, uh, especially during, uh, periods of

91
00:07:28,660 --> 00:07:38,880
hardship, I'm thinking about, let's say, World War I or other periods, uh, uh, during centuries, um, you know, during, uh, uh, pandemics or, um, I'm referring

92
00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:40,660
to prior to the COVID pandemic.

93
00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:41,690
Uh, the...

94
00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:50,720
It was, uh, essential to, uh, sustain families that were living in the mountains, you know, places where there were not many other, uh, food sources during winter.

95
00:07:50,760 --> 00:08:01,320
So kind of I, I compare the chestnut to the pecan trees because of this, uh, commercial, but also, uh, more, more, um, social importance for people and

96
00:08:01,380 --> 00:08:01,740
animals.

97
00:08:01,820 --> 00:08:02,620
Ping Yu: Yeah.

98
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:02,880
Yeah.

99
00:08:03,020 --> 00:08:03,160
Yeah.

100
00:08:03,250 --> 00:08:12,920
And then I have to mention that, uh, the economic value of both of those are pretty important because I know, well, pecan has a pretty big role in Texas,

101
00:08:12,980 --> 00:08:16,660
and then you spent years, uh, studying pecan in back in Texas A&M.

102
00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:17,180
Leo Lombardini: Yes.

103
00:08:17,220 --> 00:08:26,540
Ping Yu: And here in Georgia, um, pecan commodity is contributing a lot economically speaking to- Absolutely our Georgia economy in general.

104
00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,980
So- Yes I see the reason, uh, behind why you love those.

105
00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:42,460
(upbeat music) (laughs) And I know you personally, um, is a big fan for co- of coffee, and you have done a lot of work on

106
00:08:42,560 --> 00:08:50,080
coffee, and you were the director of the coffee or the Borlaug Center for World Coffee center back in Texas.

107
00:08:50,569 --> 00:08:58,580
And it's people out there who's listening to this, I would say 90%, if not more, are coffee drinkers.

108
00:08:58,740 --> 00:09:07,340
(laughs) But, um, it's such a beloved crop on the planet, but how did you first get involved in coffee research?

109
00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:09,360
Leo Lombardini: Yes.

110
00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:16,040
It was, uh, uh, one of those things of being in the right place at the right time, at the right time, I guess.

111
00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:26,560
Uh, because, um, I have to give credit to Dr. Elsa Murano, who was and still is the director of the Borlaug Institute, Nor- Norman Borlaug Institute for International

112
00:09:26,620 --> 00:09:33,780
Agriculture at Texas A&M University, because I interacted with her professionally in a few instances.

113
00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:44,440
But, uh, when, uh, um, uh, at some point, the Borlaug Institute was awarded, uh, a fairly large grant from, um, USAID,

114
00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:50,080
the United States Agency for International Development, which is now semi-defunct.

115
00:09:50,740 --> 00:10:00,979
But, um, this was, uh, um, in 2014 when, uh, um, uh, Central American countries, coffee-producing countries

116
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:12,730
had just, uh, witnessed a resurgence in coffee leaf rust, which is, uh, uh, one of probably the, uh, the worst, uh, um, diseases

117
00:10:12,820 --> 00:10:14,420
that can affect the coffee crop.

118
00:10:14,620 --> 00:10:25,280
And again, in 2012, 2013, there was, uh, one of those perfect storm that had to do with climate and, uh, um, developing of new strains

119
00:10:25,340 --> 00:10:30,330
of fung- fungi and then, um, economic factors.

120
00:10:30,420 --> 00:10:35,720
Anyway, so the, this fungus became a serious concern for many of these countries.

121
00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:45,820
And so, uh, the Borlaug Institute, together with, uh, World Coffee Research and, uh, several of the big coffee players in, in the United States, uh,

122
00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,240
joined forces, and, uh, this, uh, grant was awarded

123
00:10:50,560 --> 00:11:00,220
with the idea of, uh, helping, uh, nine Central American coffee-producing countries to fight and be...

124
00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:03,830
uh, fight this disease and develop a more resilient industry.

125
00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:14,820
So at that point, they were looking for somebody at the, uh, Texas A&M campus to help co-lead, uh, this project, especially for the, the

126
00:11:14,900 --> 00:11:22,300
component that was gonna take place, uh, at Texas A&M, because obviously most of the activities were gonna take place, uh, in the producing countries.

127
00:11:22,350 --> 00:11:24,580
And so this is when she approached me.

128
00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,880
Uh, she wanted to know if I was interested in this.

129
00:11:28,460 --> 00:11:37,210
And the, the reason why she came to me, I assume, is I guess, (laughs) I hope because she, she trusted I could do the job, but also because I

130
00:11:37,260 --> 00:11:40,240
had previous experience working in Central America.

131
00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:41,940
I was quite fluent in Spanish.

132
00:11:42,460 --> 00:11:49,960
And so, you know, she asked me, and I, um, I immediately accepted because I thought it was a, a very good cause.

133
00:11:50,776 --> 00:11:54,116
Uh, and, um, something I was very interested in.

134
00:11:54,236 --> 00:12:02,856
So, um, and you know, I just wanna put a pre- a, a little parenthesis here and say, 'cause say, you know, some people may wonder why is the United

135
00:12:02,956 --> 00:12:11,506
States interest in doing a project on a crop that is only marginally grown in the United States?

136
00:12:11,676 --> 00:12:15,796
Because, uh, honestly, only, uh, Hawaii is...

137
00:12:15,836 --> 00:12:24,756
Hawaii and a little bit, very little bit of boutique coffee production in California, but these are the only two states where coffee is grown in the United States.

138
00:12:24,856 --> 00:12:32,356
So why is the United States investing, uh, money in, um, helping coffee-producing countries in Central America?

139
00:12:32,436 --> 00:12:36,716
Well, there's at least a g- uh, uh, a good couple of good reasons.

140
00:12:36,876 --> 00:12:46,276
One is because, uh, um, we import pretty much all the coffee that we drink, and mu- much of this coffee comes from Central American country.

141
00:12:46,476 --> 00:12:55,116
So obviously it's important for us to make sure that, um, coffee importers and coffee companies continue to have their supply.

142
00:12:55,816 --> 00:13:03,776
But also, um, according to, you know, statistics, there are over two million jobs in the United States there are...

143
00:13:03,796 --> 00:13:13,736
that revolve around coffee, and then of course includes all the importers, but also think about all the coffee shops, the coffee roasters, all the, the manufacturer for the cups

144
00:13:13,816 --> 00:13:16,156
and the lids and the stirrers and everything else.

145
00:13:16,836 --> 00:13:18,996
And so it's, it's a, it's a good reason.

146
00:13:19,056 --> 00:13:20,816
We wanna make sure those jobs are, are,

147
00:13:22,036 --> 00:13:22,926
are secured.

148
00:13:23,536 --> 00:13:33,636
In fact, uh, going back to the origin of this grant, when 2012, 2013, this big, uh, coffee leaf rust outbreak took place, there was

149
00:13:33,716 --> 00:13:43,916
a, a spike in migration to the United States that economists and, and people that study, uh, this actually directly correlated with the coffee

150
00:13:43,976 --> 00:13:44,396
rust.

151
00:13:44,536 --> 00:13:55,016
So again, it's, it's a, it's kind of a soft approach to reduce, um, illegal migration and also illegal, um, you know, being involved

152
00:13:55,036 --> 00:13:58,416
in illegal activities, some of the Central American countries.

153
00:13:59,056 --> 00:13:59,636
Um- Yeah.

154
00:13:59,676 --> 00:14:04,396
Ping Yu: And, and some people may, uh, never thought science to this level.

155
00:14:04,636 --> 00:14:08,116
They would think that, okay, horticulture is just horticulture.

156
00:14:08,656 --> 00:14:10,216
It's plants and everywhere.

157
00:14:10,316 --> 00:14:18,856
But, uh, I, I'm glad that you mentioned, um, it's just a very good example to show the impact of horticulture.

158
00:14:18,876 --> 00:14:27,076
We're not just people growing plants, but, uh, we help people in so many different ways, and not just in the United States, but worldwide.

159
00:14:27,616 --> 00:14:27,656
Yeah.

160
00:14:27,696 --> 00:14:37,836
people are rely on those activities to have a good life, and that's our whole point as scientists, as universities to provide all the resources to help them

161
00:14:38,516 --> 00:14:43,376
maintain a kind of decent life- Yeah so that they can, um, be happy.

162
00:14:43,756 --> 00:14:44,676
That's one of our goals.

163
00:14:46,356 --> 00:14:55,716
(upbeat music) So before we get scientific, and let's go back to the daily coffee drinking type of activities.

164
00:14:56,136 --> 00:15:04,046
So when you take your coffee, because you have all those experience and knowledge on coffee itself, what...

165
00:15:04,096 --> 00:15:13,916
With all those experience and knowledge, does it change the way that you drink it for your, from your daily routine of coffee drinking?

166
00:15:14,456 --> 00:15:16,476
Leo Lombardini: (chuckles) Yes, certainly.

167
00:15:16,676 --> 00:15:26,916
Um, it taught me a lot also because, uh, when I started attending conferences, uh, that are focused on coffee, you are surrounded by a real coffee

168
00:15:26,996 --> 00:15:27,596
connoisseur.

169
00:15:27,936 --> 00:15:38,306
Uh, I mean, I, I, I remember going to one of the first meetings, uh, at, uh, the Specialty Coffee Association coffee, uh, I mean, uh, conference,

170
00:15:38,436 --> 00:15:47,116
uh, and you're in this meeting because obviously you go to conference not just to go to the trade show or, you know, attend presentation, but also you take advantage

171
00:15:47,136 --> 00:15:51,316
of having all these people at the same place at the same time to have meetings.

172
00:15:51,416 --> 00:16:01,556
So we would, uh, go to this conference and, and have several meetings and with the, uh, coffee company executive or, or other researchers, and literally

173
00:16:01,576 --> 00:16:09,616
in the middle of the meeting you see these people opening their bag and they start take out their coffee grinder, and they, they plug in their, their kettle, uh,

174
00:16:09,756 --> 00:16:10,415
in the wall.

175
00:16:10,816 --> 00:16:20,036
(chuckles) So they start w- uh, you know, uh, heating up their water, and they literally start preparing their coffee, uh, right there in, in, the conference, uh, uh, at

176
00:16:20,076 --> 00:16:20,916
the, the me- in the meeting.

177
00:16:21,496 --> 00:16:28,616
So you definitely start thinking about, okay, maybe (chuckles) I should revisit the way I, I drink my coffee.

178
00:16:28,776 --> 00:16:30,276
Indeed, you become, um...

179
00:16:30,776 --> 00:16:40,996
first you really start appreciating high-quality coffee, because if the coffee is good, you literally don't have to add, uh, any sugar or any

180
00:16:41,076 --> 00:16:43,696
creamer or milk or whatever.

181
00:16:43,796 --> 00:16:50,696
You just drink it straight, and that's really how you can evaluate, uh, the quality of coffee.

182
00:16:50,736 --> 00:16:59,216
And this is done, again, routinely by this, uh, coffee buyers, coffee expert when they evaluate, uh, specific lots of coffee.

183
00:16:59,356 --> 00:17:09,496
So, uh, once you get used to, you taste the good coffee, then you're kind of hooked to say, "Okay, uh, I do see a difference between, you know,

184
00:17:09,656 --> 00:17:19,906
the regular store brand, uh, uh, pre-ground coffee and something that's, uh, high quality specialty coffee that is ground right,

185
00:17:19,956 --> 00:17:21,016
right before brewing."

186
00:17:21,516 --> 00:17:23,696
And then, uh, you know, you kind of have to...

187
00:17:24,396 --> 00:17:24,456
you...

188
00:17:24,636 --> 00:17:30,276
not kind of, but you, you appreciate it and you're, you, you become a little bit more refined.

189
00:17:30,936 --> 00:17:38,936
So yes, but in so long answer to, to your- Yeah question, I have learned how to, um, drink better coffee.

190
00:17:39,616 --> 00:17:49,496
Ping Yu: (laughs) Well, the, the reason why I ask you is because, well, I apparently didn't, uh, directly, uh, associate with any of those, uh, research I have done, but I

191
00:17:49,536 --> 00:17:55,511
happen to be- The roommate of one of your beloved, uh, PhD students, Sarah.

192
00:17:55,692 --> 00:18:03,632
And so we lived together for three years back in, uh, Texas A&M, and she has a specific way to drink coffee, and I kind of observed that.

193
00:18:03,672 --> 00:18:04,152
And then...

194
00:18:04,172 --> 00:18:09,532
Because before I drank instant coffee with those, like- Mm pre-ground coffees- and I...

195
00:18:09,752 --> 00:18:14,532
the quality of that is not, you know, (laughs) comparable to- No, I know better coffee beans.

196
00:18:14,572 --> 00:18:19,112
So I kind of have to add a lot of sugar and milk to make it tasteable.

197
00:18:19,152 --> 00:18:19,732
But right now...

198
00:18:19,912 --> 00:18:27,652
But after that, I start to, you know, um, get some sense of, like, appreciate better coffee beans and coffees.

199
00:18:27,952 --> 00:18:35,092
And, and now I, I, for all the coffee that I drink, at least at home, I don't need to add any sugar.

200
00:18:35,132 --> 00:18:41,172
And sometimes now I just add, uh, some little bit milk just to do the art that I li- (laughs) like.

201
00:18:41,212 --> 00:18:41,262
Leo Lombardini: Interesting.

202
00:18:41,332 --> 00:18:43,332
Ping Yu: do like the, the latte art.

203
00:18:43,672 --> 00:18:43,682
Leo Lombardini: Nice.

204
00:18:43,692 --> 00:18:44,792
Ping Yu: Uh, just for, for fun.

205
00:18:44,892 --> 00:18:49,032
But, um, it definitely changed the way that I look at coffee, uh, myself.

206
00:18:51,092 --> 00:19:01,252
(upbeat music) So, um, with the coffee, it all comes from the coffee plant, and you briefly mentioned some of the big players worldwide, um,

207
00:19:01,352 --> 00:19:02,272
to produce coffee.

208
00:19:02,372 --> 00:19:12,852
Can you show us the big picture of, like, where those coffee plants and those coffee are produced worldwide, and, uh, they...

209
00:19:13,152 --> 00:19:14,892
starting from the coffee plant itself?

210
00:19:15,492 --> 00:19:15,852
Leo Lombardini: Yes.

211
00:19:16,092 --> 00:19:22,792
Um, so the coffee plant, uh, uh, most of the coffee comes from Coffea arabica.

212
00:19:23,952 --> 00:19:34,492
Uh, the majority of the coffee we drink is, certainly specialty coffee, comes from the Coffea arabica species, which is one of 133

213
00:19:34,592 --> 00:19:36,732
species there in the Coffea genus.

214
00:19:36,932 --> 00:19:37,272
Okay?

215
00:19:37,532 --> 00:19:43,492
So 133, most of them are actually from the, um, African, uh, continent.

216
00:19:44,112 --> 00:19:46,432
They're all native to Africa.

217
00:19:46,752 --> 00:19:54,012
But, uh, uh, actually one important spaces, uh, uh, place for, for Coffea species is Madagascar.

218
00:19:54,232 --> 00:20:00,072
Madagascar is, has 67 of the 133 species of coffee.

219
00:20:00,872 --> 00:20:09,592
Now, uh, I talk about this 133 species, but the ones that are cultivated, actually it's only about three really.

220
00:20:09,852 --> 00:20:18,152
So it's Coffea arabica, which supplies about 65% of the, um, coffee that is consumed in the world.

221
00:20:18,712 --> 00:20:25,052
Coffea canephora, which is known as Robusta, which is pretty much the remaining 35.

222
00:20:25,172 --> 00:20:33,552
Uh, uh, then there's a third one, is Coffea liberica, uh, which is really less than 1%, and it's only consumed locally.

223
00:20:33,592 --> 00:20:36,252
There's not a market for it.

224
00:20:36,492 --> 00:20:46,252
The reason why Arabica is, uh, the most common one is definitely because of the quality, is the mildest of all the Coffea.

225
00:20:46,872 --> 00:20:56,172
The other ones have, uh, either a higher content of caffeine, which you think, oh, great, I get a, you know, (laughs) a bigger boost, but, uh, it's also associated

226
00:20:56,212 --> 00:20:56,952
with bitterness.

227
00:20:57,472 --> 00:21:06,012
Um, you know, the higher content of caffeine, uh, is not, does- doesn't necessarily translate into, um, a better cup quality.

228
00:21:06,052 --> 00:21:08,592
So yeah, you asked me where they, uh, coming from.

229
00:21:08,632 --> 00:21:12,032
As I mentioned, the Coffea is pretty much the African continent.

230
00:21:12,732 --> 00:21:20,252
Obviously, Coffea arabica is from what is now Ethiopia, is, um, that's where it came from.

231
00:21:20,332 --> 00:21:30,472
So, you know, sometimes we, especially for people that don't, are not familiar with coffee production, you think about, oh, you know, Colombian coffee or Guatemalan coffee, Brazilian coffee.

232
00:21:30,492 --> 00:21:36,632
But if you think about it, uh, none of these countries, uh, actually, um, had coffee to begin with.

233
00:21:36,752 --> 00:21:46,812
It was all introduced, uh, between the late 1700 and mid 1800 as, uh, an additional source of, uh, obviously, uh, income and, uh,

234
00:21:46,872 --> 00:21:57,212
because once they realized that it was, coffee was actually growing well, they, uh, started replacing existing crops or maybe, uh, cutting down forests,

235
00:21:57,352 --> 00:21:59,532
uh, unfortunately, to grow coffee.

236
00:22:00,072 --> 00:22:01,192
So that's, uh, um...

237
00:22:01,252 --> 00:22:05,712
And still today, you know, Brazil is the largest, uh, coffee producer in the world.

238
00:22:06,372 --> 00:22:10,052
Produces about, you know, one-third if I'm not wrong.

239
00:22:10,091 --> 00:22:13,292
I don't have the numbers, uh, but, uh, maybe even more actually.

240
00:22:13,612 --> 00:22:23,572
So, uh, second to, uh, Brazil is, uh, actually Vietnam is the second largest producer of coffee, but mainly Robusta, so the Coffea canephora.

241
00:22:23,732 --> 00:22:32,352
So we usually don't drink Vietnam coffee because, again, it's, uh, used to produce Robusta or, uh, Coffea canephora.

242
00:22:32,832 --> 00:22:34,912
And Coffea canephora, uh, is

243
00:22:36,292 --> 00:22:46,752
almost, uh, never drank as a pure coffee, uh, but, uh, it is blended with, uh, with the Arabica for kind of inferior blends

244
00:22:46,872 --> 00:22:49,572
or, or espresso blends and things like that.

245
00:22:50,572 --> 00:23:00,372
Ping Yu: Um, are you saying that if people want to, for instance, kind of get a taste of better coffee, if they go to a grocery store, they just need to

246
00:23:00,392 --> 00:23:03,732
look for Ethiopia coffee beans instead of...

247
00:23:05,052 --> 00:23:07,692
Leo Lombardini: It doesn't have to be necessarily coming from Ethiopia.

248
00:23:08,052 --> 00:23:11,552
Ethiopia coffee is definitely high quality most of the time.

249
00:23:11,732 --> 00:23:18,072
Um, coffee is a, is a major, uh, contributor to Ethiopian, uh, um, economy.

250
00:23:18,372 --> 00:23:25,532
Um- Mm-hmm huge component of their, uh, GDP, uh, because they export literally millions of pounds every year.

251
00:23:26,252 --> 00:23:28,112
Uh, and it's definitely high quality.

252
00:23:28,452 --> 00:23:33,332
But you can, you can get very high quality coffee from Central America, for example.

253
00:23:33,732 --> 00:23:39,552
So, you know, Colombia and Panama, Guatemala, Costa Rica, just to name a few.

254
00:23:39,652 --> 00:23:41,052
Honduras, El Salvador.

255
00:23:41,062 --> 00:23:45,572
(laughs) I have to be careful 'cause I have s- so many colleagues and, and friends from all those countries.

256
00:23:45,632 --> 00:23:46,552
I don't wanna forget them.

257
00:23:46,592 --> 00:23:48,852
(laughs) I don't wanna forget their countries.

258
00:23:49,312 --> 00:23:49,792
(laughs) As I...

259
00:23:49,912 --> 00:23:54,372
Ping Yu: As you're, like, naming those countries, I like- Yeah yeah- Like, I will not forget- Nicaragua.

260
00:23:55,052 --> 00:23:56,832
Leo Lombardini: (laughs) Mexico.

261
00:23:57,372 --> 00:23:57,911
Ping Yu: Yeah.

262
00:23:58,192 --> 00:23:58,612
(upbeat music)

263
00:24:00,802 --> 00:24:11,082
So, um, basically coffee, uh, as a plant, and, uh, it grows mainly in those tropical areas where they provide, um, the

264
00:24:11,742 --> 00:24:13,762
environmental conditions for them to survive.

265
00:24:14,162 --> 00:24:24,402
But when we talk about that, what kind of environmental conditions does, does the coffee plant really need to survive, and what ki- does

266
00:24:24,482 --> 00:24:30,842
those environment conditions play a role in determining the quality of the coffee down the road?

267
00:24:31,922 --> 00:24:34,662
Leo Lombardini: Yes, that's a very good question, and you are correct.

268
00:24:34,942 --> 00:24:35,162
The...

269
00:24:35,342 --> 00:24:43,162
obviously, just like all plants, there are some conditions that are ideal for, uh, the, the particular species to thrive.

270
00:24:43,702 --> 00:24:48,282
In case, I'm just gonna focus on the two, Coffea arabica and Coffea canephora.

271
00:24:48,362 --> 00:24:55,962
The two species are quite different in terms of their, uh, ecological preferences, uh, um, and growing condition.

272
00:24:56,062 --> 00:25:06,342
Because, uh, Coffea arabica, uh, evolved or came from the western highlands of Ethiopia, which is, uh, mountainous,

273
00:25:06,502 --> 00:25:12,482
uh, mist- uh, you know, uh, cloud forest type of, uh, environment.

274
00:25:12,562 --> 00:25:21,822
So definitely higher altitude, uh, frequent, um, cloudy days, and never too hot, and that's really...

275
00:25:22,242 --> 00:25:25,502
these are the conditions where the, uh, Arabica coffee thrives.

276
00:25:26,062 --> 00:25:36,242
So, um, temperatures, let's say, averaging between 70 and 80 degrees undercover, because this is a, a, a shade plant that

277
00:25:36,302 --> 00:25:41,782
evolved, uh, under the cover of larger trees in the forest.

278
00:25:42,382 --> 00:25:51,002
So this is why shade-grown, mountain-grown Arabica coffee is really where you can get the highest quality.

279
00:25:51,842 --> 00:26:00,902
Even though it might be the same identical species genetically, you know, or clonally propagated, obviously, the...

280
00:26:01,422 --> 00:26:08,342
it would develop a different coffee and the chemical structure of the fruits, the seeds, actually.

281
00:26:08,362 --> 00:26:17,282
Because maybe not everybody knows that the coffee beans is actually the seed of the plant- Yes which of course turns into the quality of the brewed coffee.

282
00:26:18,022 --> 00:26:28,142
Uh, in case of Coffea canephora, Robusta, actually, uh, Robusta comes from a much, much larger geographical region, which is pretty

283
00:26:28,182 --> 00:26:29,962
much all equatorial Africa.

284
00:26:30,622 --> 00:26:39,562
So you find, uh, um, native Robusta plants all the way from West Africa, um, but again, all equatorial.

285
00:26:39,622 --> 00:26:44,962
So, but typically in lowlands or not in the mountains like Arabica.

286
00:26:45,662 --> 00:26:50,002
So that's the reason why, uh, Robusta coffee can...

287
00:26:50,022 --> 00:26:54,612
the, the Robusta species, the canephora species can tolerate higher temperature.

288
00:26:55,082 --> 00:27:05,702
But also one of the reasons why it's a lot more resistant to pests and diseases than the Arabica is because it comes from a much, uh, larger, uh, geographical

289
00:27:05,782 --> 00:27:16,262
region that you can find different, uh, ecotypes or, or plants that have been exposed to, uh, diseases and, uh, um,

290
00:27:17,542 --> 00:27:19,462
insects.

291
00:27:19,762 --> 00:27:28,862
Uh, you know, it's a much broader genetic pool than the Arabica, which only come from a very, very small region, so that's a lot of also a kind of

292
00:27:28,902 --> 00:27:30,901
inbreeding that had to do with it.

293
00:27:31,002 --> 00:27:34,062
Uh, so, um, Arabica is actually the...

294
00:27:34,222 --> 00:27:44,342
a lot of the current, uh, the modern varieties that we have have a little bit of Robusta genes in it because of hybridization that has helped

295
00:27:44,562 --> 00:27:50,022
increase resistant in the Arabica, uh, to diseases and pests, so.

296
00:27:50,662 --> 00:27:51,202
Ping Yu: Yeah.

297
00:27:51,282 --> 00:28:01,562
And, and, and, um, I would assume that folks out there who drink coffee day in, every day, they may not have the privilege like me, uh, actually seeing

298
00:28:01,602 --> 00:28:04,102
a coffee plant in the hou- in the house.

299
00:28:04,172 --> 00:28:14,242
'Cause, uh, I was able to see the coffee plant producing flower, and I was quite surprised to see how tiny little, like, white

300
00:28:14,542 --> 00:28:18,081
flowers, like, scattered around the, the, the plant.

301
00:28:18,322 --> 00:28:24,502
Again, the coffee plant, it's a tropical plant, and so you can imagine the leaves are pretty big and then glowy.

302
00:28:24,542 --> 00:28:32,162
And compared to the glowy, showy, uh, leaves, those tiny little, uh, flowers are, like, you know, pretty small.

303
00:28:32,582 --> 00:28:42,622
But then I w- I, I was looking at them like, "Oh my gosh, all those little tiny flowers turn into the gr- the coffee beans that we consume

304
00:28:42,762 --> 00:28:44,702
so much, uh, around the world."

305
00:28:44,772 --> 00:28:45,822
It just surprised me.

306
00:28:46,442 --> 00:28:57,482
A- and I know that botanic gardens, at least in Atlan- Atlanta Botanic Garden, in the tropical room or the greenhouse, they have some,

307
00:28:57,942 --> 00:29:01,722
one or two coffee plants to, for people to look at.

308
00:29:01,782 --> 00:29:10,302
So next time if you go there, check them out, and, uh, then you probably, it'll, um, change your perception of drinking coffee next morning.

309
00:29:10,802 --> 00:29:21,542
(upbeat music) (laughs) So we talk about a lot of plant, the coffee plant itself, but can you give us a overview

310
00:29:21,782 --> 00:29:25,302
of, well, walk us through of how the coffee,

311
00:29:26,722 --> 00:29:34,582
from the coffee plant all the way to become like, or be- in the cup.

312
00:29:34,922 --> 00:29:38,201
Can you just walk Mm-hmm through the whole process?

313
00:29:38,402 --> 00:29:38,722
Leo Lombardini: Yes.

314
00:29:38,942 --> 00:29:45,842
I'll have to be quick, 'cause obviously there's several steps that take place from the field to the cup.

315
00:29:46,582 --> 00:29:50,622
Uh, let's start just, uh, a little bit before harvest.

316
00:29:50,722 --> 00:29:56,722
Uh, I just wanna give a brief, a brief introduction on, on how coffee, uh, the coffee plant grows.

317
00:29:57,362 --> 00:30:01,482
Uh, it's, it's, it's considered a shrub or a small-sized tree.

318
00:30:02,118 --> 00:30:08,978
And, um, it takes about, uh, between two and three years for the plants to develop the first flowers that you just mentioned.

319
00:30:09,598 --> 00:30:14,618
And then it continue producing for several years, 15, 20, 30.

320
00:30:14,938 --> 00:30:25,518
Um, but obviously for commercial purposes, uh, you need to, at some point, you either need to prune it back, um, so that the, the plant doesn't

321
00:30:25,798 --> 00:30:31,698
become too big, which will become very difficult to harvest, but also to kind of rejuvenate, uh, a lot of the tissues.

322
00:30:32,208 --> 00:30:40,458
So there's several, uh, growers that, you know, they cut it pretty much to the stump, at the stump level and let it re- you know, regrow and, uh, kind

323
00:30:40,498 --> 00:30:41,208
of rejuvenate.

324
00:30:41,288 --> 00:30:42,518
Ping Yu: I wish we could do the same too.

325
00:30:42,698 --> 00:30:48,178
(laughs) We could just cut, cut a limb and then, uh, you know, get, get new, younger, stronger.

326
00:30:48,298 --> 00:30:49,078
Leo Lombardini: (laughs) But anyway.

327
00:30:49,118 --> 00:30:50,018
Ping Yu: Cut, cut our hair.

328
00:30:50,358 --> 00:30:50,518
Leo Lombardini: Right.

329
00:30:50,538 --> 00:31:00,578
(laughs) So, um, so after a coffee is harvested is, uh, is a very delicate, uh, process because, um, mm, for

330
00:31:00,618 --> 00:31:07,678
those, uh, who are listening that have never, uh, seen a coffee fruit, uh, it's, it's very similar to a cherry.

331
00:31:07,758 --> 00:31:09,818
In fact, we also talk about coffee cherry.

332
00:31:09,938 --> 00:31:19,938
So you have, uh, um, the seeds, which in case of coffee, unlike a cherry, the cherry only has one, one seed, one pit, but the coffee plant, um, mm,

333
00:31:19,998 --> 00:31:20,978
has, uh, two.

334
00:31:21,418 --> 00:31:29,328
So there are two seeds facing each other, and that's why when you look at a coffee bean, one side is flat, one side is, uh, is, uh, curved because

335
00:31:29,358 --> 00:31:31,918
the two flat sides, they face each other.

336
00:31:32,158 --> 00:31:37,598
So they have two, two seeds, uh, next to each other, and then everything is surrounded by a pulp.

337
00:31:37,838 --> 00:31:41,218
And this process has to be done immediately after harvest.

338
00:31:41,718 --> 00:31:52,118
So you have to find ways to, to process the seeds very quickly, because otherwise, this pulp, obviously, you think about it, you have a, a, a fl- a, a

339
00:31:52,178 --> 00:32:02,268
tissue, a plant tissue that is, is rich in sugar, uh, very watery, and if you let it sit there, especially after it's been bruised because of, uh, harvesting,

340
00:32:02,478 --> 00:32:09,338
it start rotting, okay, and fermenting, which would be obviously a disastrous for the quality of the coffee.

341
00:32:09,398 --> 00:32:11,738
So it has to be processed immediately.

342
00:32:12,218 --> 00:32:18,678
And without getting into too many details, but, uh, this can be done in at least three main ways, okay?

343
00:32:18,898 --> 00:32:27,798
One, it could be you take the, the fruits, you harvest the fruit with the, with the pulp, and you immediately put them on a, on a...

344
00:32:28,118 --> 00:32:32,778
Usually, it's done in concrete patios in the sun to let it dry, okay?

345
00:32:32,998 --> 00:32:43,438
And, uh, uh, this, in this way, the, um, obviously it ha- has to be a pretty, um, thin layer, you know, about a couple inches, maybe less, uh,

346
00:32:43,578 --> 00:32:47,398
so that, uh, all the coffee, uh, fruits, they start drying.

347
00:32:47,758 --> 00:32:51,768
And this is a process that can take, uh, you know, uh, two, three weeks, depending on the weather.

348
00:32:52,358 --> 00:32:58,138
So the, the pulp, the fleshy part starts drying out, and it dries on the seeds.

349
00:32:58,318 --> 00:33:06,138
And this is, uh, confers this, uh, particular flavor, uh, characteristics to the coffee that will be brewed after that.

350
00:33:06,198 --> 00:33:08,778
This is called natural processing, okay?

351
00:33:08,848 --> 00:33:14,258
And it's typical in those countries where, um, there's, they don't have a lot of access to water.

352
00:33:14,498 --> 00:33:19,058
For example, Yemen is a big producer of coffee or even Af- other African countries.

353
00:33:19,538 --> 00:33:27,638
So it can be, again, the, the coffee fruits are laid either on, um, raised beds or concrete patios where they dry.

354
00:33:28,088 --> 00:33:38,278
The other, uh, process, uh, which is called honey processed, what they do, they immediately run the coffee fruit through a depulper that removes the pulp

355
00:33:38,298 --> 00:33:41,838
and separates the pulp from the, from the, uh, seeds.

356
00:33:41,958 --> 00:33:51,718
And then the seeds, which are covered by, uh, a mucilage, which is actually a pectin, just like the one that we use for, you know, canning, uh, making jams,

357
00:33:52,378 --> 00:33:55,618
uh, then it's laid in the sun to dry, okay?

358
00:33:55,738 --> 00:33:57,828
This is called a honey processing.

359
00:33:57,848 --> 00:34:04,318
And then the third process, which is definitely the most common one, is called washed coffee.

360
00:34:04,778 --> 00:34:06,398
Um, so the,

361
00:34:07,678 --> 00:34:18,078
the pulp are immediately removed from the seeds, and then the seeds with the mu- mucilage on top actually get, uh, placed in tanks, uh, where they

362
00:34:18,238 --> 00:34:19,128
cover with water.

363
00:34:19,258 --> 00:34:29,718
And so they actually, uh, soak in, water for a period between 24 and 48 hours, and they undergo, uh, a fermentation process

364
00:34:29,758 --> 00:34:36,298
in which the yeasts that are present naturally, uh, in some cases, they are actually added, uh, in, on the fruit.

365
00:34:36,818 --> 00:34:44,598
They break down this mucilage, and by doing this, when the seeds are underwater, they also transform the chemistry of the beans.

366
00:34:45,118 --> 00:34:55,418
Uh, so after ei- uh, whatever process, uh, uh, you do, at some point, obviously the, uh, the seeds have to be dried to about

367
00:34:55,478 --> 00:35:00,938
10 to 12% to make sure that, uh, the seed is no longer viable.

368
00:35:01,008 --> 00:35:02,078
It's dead, okay?

369
00:35:02,318 --> 00:35:06,158
Uh, so it doesn't germinate, but also to prevent spoilage, okay?

370
00:35:06,318 --> 00:35:14,238
So there's an additional drying, which is done either on the patios and under the sun or in, in a, a dryer with heaters.

371
00:35:14,318 --> 00:35:19,858
And then at that point, the coffee is ready to be s- uh, bagged and, uh, shipped.

372
00:35:20,418 --> 00:35:21,358
Now, for the...

373
00:35:21,398 --> 00:35:29,578
You know, this is, again, this might be a little bit complicated to follow, but for the, the coffee that was processed naturally, the one that still had the, the

374
00:35:29,618 --> 00:35:37,258
dry pulp attached, now there's another, uh, step that has to be, uh, this dried pulp has to be, uh, removed.

375
00:35:37,298 --> 00:35:46,738
So there's machines to, uh, remove the, the dry skin and then remove the parchment so that, uh, they can also be, you know, bagged and then shipped.

376
00:35:46,818 --> 00:35:56,238
So in a nutshell, all this is happening in the producing country, okay, close to, as close as possible to the farms, because as I said, this has to, this

377
00:35:56,258 --> 00:36:01,438
process, the post-harvest process has to be, uh, started as soon as possible.

378
00:36:02,058 --> 00:36:12,418
Now, after the, the seeds or the coffee beans, at this point we can call them coffee beans, are in the 60, 60-kilo bag, they can be stored

379
00:36:12,558 --> 00:36:18,038
locally, but also they can be shipped on the, obviously the shipping containers all over the world.

380
00:36:18,068 --> 00:36:27,718
They can reach their destination, whether it's Norway or, you know, whatever, uh, that point on this big, obviously, uh, ships that can take it all over the world.

381
00:36:27,878 --> 00:36:36,958
So it's, it's a lot of work, and this is just, just to get to destination, because once it gets to destination, then you have, it's stored again in warehouses

382
00:36:37,934 --> 00:36:46,774
And at that point, it's distributed to the roasters, because, uh, um, yeah, g- coffee is shipped when it's still green, okay?

383
00:36:46,914 --> 00:36:51,434
Not, uh, not green meaning, you know, like green beans, um, meaning they're not roasted.

384
00:36:52,094 --> 00:36:56,894
Uh, they look kinda greenish, and they don't taste, they don't smell anything like coffee.

385
00:36:57,194 --> 00:37:06,434
Um, it actually, if you put a green coffee bean in your mouth, it, uh, it's very hard, first of all, but also it's, it's got a kinda grassy flavor.

386
00:37:06,694 --> 00:37:17,194
Uh, so only after roasting is when you start getting all the, the aroma and the flavor characteristics that are typical of

387
00:37:17,294 --> 00:37:17,793
coffee.

388
00:37:17,914 --> 00:37:25,034
Ping Yu: So, um, and then of course, after it's roasted, it's- And, uh, when, when you were describing the process of how coffee has been...

389
00:37:25,074 --> 00:37:28,934
or the post-harvest process of the coffee, uh, being treated, I was...

390
00:37:28,974 --> 00:37:39,014
I, I wanted to kinda rephrase the, the processing in a, a different way, where people would, uh, vividly, visually can imagine the

391
00:37:39,054 --> 00:37:39,654
whole process.

392
00:37:39,794 --> 00:37:42,654
Here's what I was thinking while you were describing the whole process.

393
00:37:43,014 --> 00:37:47,494
I was thinking there's three ways for coffee being produced after harvest.

394
00:37:47,624 --> 00:37:57,014
And so those are the three ways of producing coffee, and then after that, it all packed and shipped to the destination, and for to people can start roasting it.

395
00:37:57,474 --> 00:38:04,734
(instrumental music) But s- in terms of roast, I know different...

396
00:38:04,774 --> 00:38:08,214
there are three main way of roasting.

397
00:38:09,414 --> 00:38:10,234
Leo Lombardini: Uh- Light not really.

398
00:38:10,294 --> 00:38:15,214
I mean, there's, uh- Okay the roasting is, uh, is pretty much one, one procedure.

399
00:38:15,454 --> 00:38:17,494
Uh, you have this big roaster.

400
00:38:17,554 --> 00:38:27,614
Mo- many of them are a drum roa- called drum roasters, which is, uh, imagine a, a dryer, like the one that you, you, you have house for, uh, clothes.

401
00:38:28,034 --> 00:38:29,154
It's the same concept.

402
00:38:29,194 --> 00:38:39,614
You have a, a source of, uh, of heat, which is, uh, either generated by gas or electricity, and, uh, uh, the, the main difference with the clothes,

403
00:38:39,794 --> 00:38:42,334
uh, dryer is the temperature (laughs) is a lot higher.

404
00:38:42,994 --> 00:38:47,534
Uh, it gets to about 400, uh, degrees Fahrenheit for coffee.

405
00:38:47,834 --> 00:38:56,214
And so there, uh, once the coffee, the green coffee beans are dumped or, uh, in the dryer, you can...

406
00:38:56,334 --> 00:39:02,654
or the, the roaster, the, the head roaster can play with two variables, uh, temperature and time.

407
00:39:03,314 --> 00:39:11,114
So you can have, uh, a lower temperature, and you keep the beans, uh, longer in the dryer.

408
00:39:11,343 --> 00:39:17,254
And when I say longer, we're talking about between, let's say, 18 and 20, 21, 22 minutes, okay?

409
00:39:17,334 --> 00:39:20,274
So each cycle, uh, is about that, that long.

410
00:39:20,634 --> 00:39:26,294
So again, you, you keep the temperature a little bit lower, but high enough that you still have a, a roasting process.

411
00:39:26,394 --> 00:39:33,374
You don't wanna have a, a temperature, let's say, of 300 degrees, because you would just barely bake, uh, you know, the, the...

412
00:39:33,654 --> 00:39:36,594
You wouldn't, it wouldn't trigger the chemical transformation.

413
00:39:37,274 --> 00:39:43,294
So, or you can decide to have, uh, a higher temperature for a shorter period of time.

414
00:39:43,874 --> 00:39:44,914
It should really be,

415
00:39:46,174 --> 00:39:49,234
how do you like your coffee roasted, okay?

416
00:39:49,374 --> 00:39:59,414
And of this changes, uh, um, any, you know, any coffee shop, any coffee roaster would have, uh, a target, uh, roasting level, which

417
00:39:59,514 --> 00:40:07,114
is, uh, based on their preference, uh, based on, on their, customers, uh, based on what they're trying to do.

418
00:40:07,314 --> 00:40:17,343
For a, a large roaster, the largest roaster in the world is probably Starbucks, because they source their coffee from, the coffee from

419
00:40:17,494 --> 00:40:26,494
so many different farms ye- around the world, from different varieties, what do they do to make sure that if you go to a coffee shop and you order, let's

420
00:40:26,534 --> 00:40:31,514
say, a Verona, uh, blend, it always tastes like a Verona blend?

421
00:40:31,714 --> 00:40:35,454
What they do, they tend to over-roast a little bit.

422
00:40:36,174 --> 00:40:46,734
So that's really w- the reason why if you go to a Starbucks, the, their coffees is, is always on the, on the, kind of a, again, over-roasted,

423
00:40:46,854 --> 00:40:49,114
kind of a charry, uh, uh, burnt.

424
00:40:49,614 --> 00:40:52,434
Because by doing this, they can...

425
00:40:52,474 --> 00:41:02,374
That's the only way they can put all this, uh, different varieties and different origins together and make sure that the Verona blend always tastes pretty much like the Verona

426
00:41:02,434 --> 00:41:02,834
blend.

427
00:41:03,274 --> 00:41:13,444
But a small coffee shop can afford to, um, to roast, like, a medium roast, which is considered ideally to really savor the quality,

428
00:41:14,014 --> 00:41:21,354
because, uh, you know, they, you know, they have, uh, they use smaller, um, they source it from smaller farms.

429
00:41:21,444 --> 00:41:30,794
Or if one year they say, "We don't have this blend," because, you know, that farm had a, um, a disease outbreak or whatever, they can always replace it with

430
00:41:30,894 --> 00:41:34,034
another one, you know, and just inform their customers.

431
00:41:34,194 --> 00:41:39,214
So there, all those, those, you know, business decisions that, that really drive roasting.

432
00:41:39,274 --> 00:41:42,924
But, uh, yeah, as I say, it's a fairly simple process.

433
00:41:43,074 --> 00:41:53,254
Uh, um, uh, the operator or the roaster or the owner decide how they want to, you know, roast their coffee based on their preference and their customer's preference.

434
00:41:53,934 --> 00:41:56,734
But, um, yeah, that's, uh, that's about it.

435
00:41:57,294 --> 00:42:02,094
Ping Yu: But what, what is the difference between, let's say, light, medium, and dark roasted coffee?

436
00:42:02,414 --> 00:42:12,630
Leo Lombardini: It, it's, uh, I think- Again, it's a combination of time, uh, the time that those beans stay in the, in the roaster, and the temperature So basic- What, what,

437
00:42:13,210 --> 00:42:16,170
Ping Yu: what- Yeah what, what would that lead to the taste of the coffee?

438
00:42:16,990 --> 00:42:25,370
Leo Lombardini: Oh, um, that's, uh, it definitely changes because, uh, uh, you can, um, uh, really follow...

439
00:42:25,590 --> 00:42:32,750
And of course, there's been research done, but, uh, the, um, one thing that does not change is the caffeine content.

440
00:42:33,270 --> 00:42:39,210
Caffeine is actually present in the beans already when they're green, because caffeine isn't...

441
00:42:39,430 --> 00:42:42,070
Why does the coffee plant and other, uh...

442
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,990
Caffeine is not only produced by the coffee plant mainly, but there are others.

443
00:42:46,050 --> 00:42:52,750
It is a cof- Caffeine is an alkaloid that is used as a natural deterrent against pest and diseases.

444
00:42:52,870 --> 00:42:53,130
Okay?

445
00:42:53,730 --> 00:42:59,070
So that's present in the plant to begin with, and it's present in the leaves, but mostly in the seeds.

446
00:42:59,690 --> 00:43:00,890
Because, uh, the...

447
00:43:01,310 --> 00:43:06,810
What is the, the purpose of every living organism on this planet is to reproduce.

448
00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:17,610
So obviously, uh, it's in the, the plant's interest to pack those seeds with caffeine so they will less likely be attacked by, uh, insects and, uh, um,

449
00:43:17,810 --> 00:43:18,310
diseases.

450
00:43:18,370 --> 00:43:18,630
Okay?

451
00:43:18,750 --> 00:43:22,330
So you have this caffeine that's in, uh, in the bean.

452
00:43:22,490 --> 00:43:27,750
It's about one, 1.5% of the dry content of a coffee bean, so it's significant.

453
00:43:28,450 --> 00:43:35,470
So that caffeine content does not change during roasting, luckily for us, because caffeine is pretty stable at high temperature.

454
00:43:36,270 --> 00:43:38,870
But what changes is, for example, the level of acidity.

455
00:43:39,610 --> 00:43:43,110
Uh, acidity is actually a good trait, uh, for coffee.

456
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:44,330
The high, uh...

457
00:43:44,430 --> 00:43:51,890
You usually, you, you have, the best quality coffees are the ones that have a high acidity, uh, which is counterintuitive.

458
00:43:51,910 --> 00:43:53,150
It's like, wait a minute, you know?

459
00:43:53,230 --> 00:44:00,590
If you think about, let's say, you know, orange juice or lemon juice, like, the, the more acid it is, like, the, might, you know, might be more, more bitter.

460
00:44:01,250 --> 00:44:03,470
But, uh, for coffees, it's the opposite.

461
00:44:03,650 --> 00:44:11,790
So the longer you keep those beans in the roaster, the lower the acidity, uh, of the brewed coffee will become.

462
00:44:12,310 --> 00:44:17,290
So that also tells you that the quality of the brewed coffee is gonna be inferior.

463
00:44:17,450 --> 00:44:27,430
For coffees, they're, uh, roasted, let's say, uh, uh, a French roast or even a, uh, an Italian roast, which is the extreme really before it, it burns.

464
00:44:27,530 --> 00:44:37,830
(laughs) Um, so for light to medium coffee is really when you can savor all the properties, uh, that

465
00:44:37,910 --> 00:44:40,130
are in, in that cup.

466
00:44:40,910 --> 00:44:47,070
So that's why that's, that's the one that is recommended if you're really trying to assess the quality of a coffee.

467
00:44:47,850 --> 00:44:51,610
Ping Yu: So basically, the acidity does not have something to do with the time.

468
00:44:51,670 --> 00:44:53,990
It's more, um, have something...

469
00:44:54,110 --> 00:44:58,190
It's more, uh, related to the time The degree of roasting Okay Yes.

470
00:44:58,450 --> 00:45:08,930
Leo Lombardini: Yeah, the degree, which again could be, you can have a, a highly, uh, you know, a dark roasted or French roasted coffee bean by increasing the temperature, keeping

471
00:45:08,970 --> 00:45:14,250
it high for a shorter period of time or, or reducing a little bit, like keep it, keep it...

472
00:45:14,510 --> 00:45:15,820
Imagine baking a cake.

473
00:45:16,350 --> 00:45:26,090
I mean, you could bake a cake, uh, instead of if the recipe says, uh, 20 minutes at 400 degrees, you could say, well, I could put it, uh, 480

474
00:45:26,290 --> 00:45:27,270
and keep it for 10.

475
00:45:28,070 --> 00:45:28,330
Ping Yu: Mm-hmm.

476
00:45:28,450 --> 00:45:36,490
Leo Lombardini: Or you could keep it at, uh, um, you know, 350 for 30 minutes, but are the three cakes gonna be the same?

477
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:45,170
Probably not, because if you- do it at, at 480 or whatever I said for 10 minutes, most likely the outside is gonna be burnt- Yeah but the inside is

478
00:45:45,210 --> 00:45:49,890
not, and maybe the, the opposite is gonna be for the one that you keep the longest.

479
00:45:49,930 --> 00:45:51,570
It might be too dry, you know?

480
00:45:51,670 --> 00:45:54,130
So that's, that's really a lot of playing.

481
00:45:54,330 --> 00:46:04,510
Uh, and, and what roasters do when they get a new batch of coffee, maybe a variety they had never, uh, used before or maybe a farm that they haven't

482
00:46:04,590 --> 00:46:10,310
bought from before, what they do, they, they just do a little scientific experiment.

483
00:46:10,350 --> 00:46:16,330
They take a batch and they roast it, and of course, they would not use the big roaster to play with.

484
00:46:16,370 --> 00:46:18,590
They are small roasters.

485
00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:26,120
Like, uh, you can put, you know, like a benchtop that only do, let's say 200 grams, 300 grams, or even less, and you play with it.

486
00:46:26,330 --> 00:46:32,830
You play with all this, and then at the end, you, you sample, you try the cup, and you say, "Okay, that's the one I want."

487
00:46:33,150 --> 00:46:37,030
So at that point, you develop your recipe and you transfer it to the big roaster.

488
00:46:37,490 --> 00:46:46,210
Ping Yu: (upbeat music) So for listeners who, you know, have listened to this episode, what is...

489
00:46:46,530 --> 00:46:46,690
How...

490
00:46:46,810 --> 00:46:52,090
What kind of message do you wanna give to the listeners, uh, who is a daily coffee drinker?

491
00:46:52,690 --> 00:46:59,350
Uh, let's say they're going to drink coffee tomorrow, what, what should they remember about coffee?

492
00:47:00,450 --> 00:47:10,610
Leo Lombardini: One thing that I, that I could probably recommend is next time you, you buy, uh, a coffee, um, in a bag, look at the package.

493
00:47:11,310 --> 00:47:21,430
Um, and before you buy one, just try to, um, educate yourself, uh, on whether the package says, first, you know, does it say 100% Arabica,

494
00:47:21,550 --> 00:47:22,990
which already tells you something.

495
00:47:23,430 --> 00:47:27,090
Because, uh, there are a lot of coffees out there that they don't say.

496
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:28,650
They just say 100% coffee.

497
00:47:28,970 --> 00:47:32,670
If they say 100% coffee, that means that there's some Robusta in it.

498
00:47:33,030 --> 00:47:33,250
Okay?

499
00:47:33,350 --> 00:47:34,930
So that's definitely gonna change.

500
00:47:35,490 --> 00:47:42,670
Also, see if it says, uh, um, if it specifies the country where it, where the coffee's from.

501
00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:45,850
Uh, so maybe next time you can compare two different countries.

502
00:47:45,870 --> 00:47:48,770
But of course, uh, um, you know, it may be...

503
00:47:48,810 --> 00:47:57,390
You, you cannot really compare two countries, 'cause for example, you can go, you could get some, uh, you know, from the store medium roast, uh, Ethiopian, and then you

504
00:47:57,490 --> 00:47:59,330
have a dark roast Guatemalan.

505
00:47:59,570 --> 00:48:03,990
So when you compare them, do you really compare the country or do you compare the roast level?

506
00:48:04,090 --> 00:48:04,210
Ping Yu: Yeah.

507
00:48:04,250 --> 00:48:07,070
(laughs) So- It's kind of like a experiment.

508
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:08,150
Leo Lombardini: (laughs) Yeah, exactly.

509
00:48:08,190 --> 00:48:09,570
You understand very well.

510
00:48:09,710 --> 00:48:09,740
Ping Yu: Yeah.

511
00:48:09,740 --> 00:48:12,170
Leo Lombardini: You're, you're obviously a, a scientist.

512
00:48:12,270 --> 00:48:14,430
So but first of all, again, educate yourself.

513
00:48:14,470 --> 00:48:22,710
But also, if you go to, uh, a coffee shop that is, you know, is not like a, a large chain, you know, like a, a chain, try to see

514
00:48:22,810 --> 00:48:26,450
if the barista knows, mm, a little bit about coffee.

515
00:48:26,540 --> 00:48:29,410
Ask questions, or you know, "Do you have different origins?

516
00:48:29,430 --> 00:48:29,970
Do you have different...

517
00:48:30,390 --> 00:48:30,750
How do you..."

518
00:48:30,970 --> 00:48:39,534
And unfortunately, in most cases, uh, um, you know, the employees are just- I don't want to say students because they're students that are very educated, but maybe they just

519
00:48:39,554 --> 00:48:40,174
need a job.

520
00:48:40,574 --> 00:48:41,554
So they might not know.

521
00:48:41,574 --> 00:48:46,714
But they might actually trigger their curiosity, and next time they see their supervisor, they...

522
00:48:46,774 --> 00:48:47,614
maybe they'll ask.

523
00:48:47,774 --> 00:48:51,544
They say, "Oh, you know, a customer asked me, you know, where do we get our coffees?

524
00:48:51,593 --> 00:48:53,854
You know, what, what can you tell me more about it, you know?"

525
00:48:54,264 --> 00:48:55,774
So a- again, educate.

526
00:48:55,954 --> 00:49:05,734
There's so much work behind a cup of coffee, and so much sweat, uh, and time spent in the field, just like for all horticulture crops.

527
00:49:06,174 --> 00:49:16,294
Never forget that, uh, behind anything we eat, there's a farmer, uh, whether it's a steak or, uh, you know, an orange, uh, that has spent a lot of time

528
00:49:16,354 --> 00:49:24,674
in the field, uh, really taking time away from their family, from, you know, watching TV or whatever, just because of they're very passionate what they do.

529
00:49:25,204 --> 00:49:31,454
And let's never forget that we should always, uh, um, remember about- Yeah our farmers and support them.

530
00:49:31,494 --> 00:49:31,874
Ping Yu: Yeah.

531
00:49:32,594 --> 00:49:40,314
A- and all those, again, it's the same, uh, concept where the information that I keep, uh, sending out, uh, uh, repeatedly.

532
00:49:40,694 --> 00:49:49,114
Just appreciate what you have, because everything that you see daily, day in and day out, is tons of work for...

533
00:49:49,154 --> 00:49:52,434
from other people, especially in horticulture world.

534
00:49:52,534 --> 00:50:02,614
Uh, and I know Leo has bec- has- is a very- is a great researcher himself, but in addition to that, he's also a very good boss

535
00:50:02,634 --> 00:50:06,254
and great, uh, admin, or department head.

536
00:50:06,314 --> 00:50:15,094
And, and since you joined UGA, you have, I don't know, developed and started, initiated many, uh, wonderful programs and, uh, activities.

537
00:50:15,534 --> 00:50:19,714
But what is your next excitement with your role at UGA?

538
00:50:21,034 --> 00:50:21,294
Leo Lombardini: Ooh.

539
00:50:21,334 --> 00:50:23,414
(laughs) Well, th- first of all, thank you.

540
00:50:23,674 --> 00:50:27,714
Uh, I'm, I'm glad that you think I'm a good, uh, supervisor, administrator.

541
00:50:27,874 --> 00:50:29,914
Hopefully this is not just for the show.

542
00:50:30,114 --> 00:50:31,744
Ping Yu: (laughs) No, no, no, you are.

543
00:50:31,744 --> 00:50:31,814
are.

544
00:50:32,374 --> 00:50:32,794
Leo Lombardini: thank you.

545
00:50:33,014 --> 00:50:38,534
Um, I, I think our, our department, uh, is in a very good, uh, state right now.

546
00:50:38,834 --> 00:50:48,914
I'm proud to say that in six years, uh, we added s- uh, 18 new faculty members, uh, including you, uh, which, uh, bring a

547
00:50:49,034 --> 00:50:51,234
lot of energy, a lot of new ideas.

548
00:50:51,254 --> 00:50:59,294
There's nothing better than, as a supervisor, to surround yourself with the people that are smarter and better than you, because they make you look good.

549
00:50:59,874 --> 00:51:09,944
(laughs) So if you all are doing well and are successful, it's very easy for me to brag about the department and go to my supervisor when I have

550
00:51:09,974 --> 00:51:14,314
to provide reports and everything else, because, uh, you guys make me look good.

551
00:51:14,794 --> 00:51:24,494
So that's really, at this point, my, my goal, to make sure that everybody has access to the resource that they need, at least.

552
00:51:24,534 --> 00:51:30,714
You know, obviously we all would like to have maybe a better lab or a larger greenhouse or new vehicles.

553
00:51:30,854 --> 00:51:40,974
We cannot do it all, but at least have enough that we can sustain high-quality programs and really help, uh, Georgia growers and, and, you know, even

554
00:51:41,054 --> 00:51:45,714
outside of Georgia, uh, the state, the, the country and internationally.

555
00:51:46,334 --> 00:51:48,494
So that's really, um, all.

556
00:51:48,594 --> 00:51:58,634
And, uh, also, I think we all have a mission, all of us in horticulture, to make sure we continue promote horticulture, uh, as a discipline, because,

557
00:51:58,734 --> 00:52:03,074
um, um, many of our students don't, uh, um...

558
00:52:03,274 --> 00:52:04,984
I am talking about undergraduate students.

559
00:52:05,374 --> 00:52:14,194
Uh, they don't, uh, discover us until they're already at the university and they stumble, uh, upon a class or a, a roommate.

560
00:52:14,334 --> 00:52:22,534
They, uh, they describe what horticulture is, and then they, they come to us and they love it, and they never leave, uh, once they come with us, because, uh,

561
00:52:22,574 --> 00:52:25,034
that's really, "My gosh, this is exactly what I wanted to do."

562
00:52:25,434 --> 00:52:27,854
And it's so therapeutic working with plants.

563
00:52:28,014 --> 00:52:36,234
Um, and, uh, uh, so that's really what we're gonna continue doing, make sure that we advocate for our, uh, industry and our discipline.

564
00:52:37,394 --> 00:52:37,734
Ping Yu: Yeah.

565
00:52:37,834 --> 00:52:42,834
Uh, I think that's one of the reasons or one of the missions for the podcast and a lot of other activities.

566
00:52:42,934 --> 00:52:47,034
Uh, we want to, deliver the message to a larger audience, to the public, say

567
00:52:48,334 --> 00:52:50,774
horticulture is a thing and it's a fun thing.

568
00:52:50,844 --> 00:52:59,674
So people needs to, um, take a serious look at us, and hopefully we, um, lure more horti- future horticulturists to our world.

569
00:53:00,174 --> 00:53:09,054
Uh, so with that in mind, if people wants to find more about horticulture in general and/or follow up on some of the work that you have done in the

570
00:53:09,114 --> 00:53:12,974
past or in the future, where do you recommend them go and look for?

571
00:53:13,814 --> 00:53:14,474
Leo Lombardini: Yeah, certainly.

572
00:53:14,694 --> 00:53:24,874
Uh, obviously our, our website is the, uh, the easiest, uh, uh, way to, um, learn more about our department, uh, and, uh, all the faculty, including you,

573
00:53:25,014 --> 00:53:25,633
what they're doing.

574
00:53:26,214 --> 00:53:34,534
Or, uh, obviously they can, uh, Google horticulture UGA or go to hort.caes.uga.edu.

575
00:53:35,194 --> 00:53:41,654
Uh, over there you can- they can find links to all the faculty profiles, our academic programs.

576
00:53:41,774 --> 00:53:43,514
And, um, uh, yeah.

577
00:53:43,834 --> 00:53:44,894
Um, I also have a...

578
00:53:45,074 --> 00:53:48,573
You know, we try to put out a newsletter at least a couple times a year.

579
00:53:48,794 --> 00:53:54,094
Um, so all those that are connected to UGA can get copy of that.

580
00:53:54,254 --> 00:53:55,834
It's obviously- Yeah electronic.

581
00:53:56,854 --> 00:54:03,734
Ping Yu: And I'll put all the link, uh, out there in the show notes so people can find the information, uh, easy, and they can- I can also put your, um,

582
00:54:03,794 --> 00:54:09,934
profile there if they want to have a direct contact to you about potential opportunities down the road.

583
00:54:10,404 --> 00:54:19,503
But, uh, thank you, Leo, for taking time of, uh, out of your busy schedule to talk with us and educate us on coffee, and show us all those wonderful

584
00:54:19,694 --> 00:54:24,774
things that going on with, uh, within UGA, and I, I really appreciate that.

585
00:54:24,934 --> 00:54:25,334
Leo Lombardini: Thank you.

586
00:54:25,794 --> 00:54:26,214
Thank you.

587
00:54:26,454 --> 00:54:27,414
Thank you for the opportunity.

588
00:54:27,454 --> 00:54:28,154
It's been a pleasure.

589
00:54:28,174 --> 00:54:34,894
Ping Yu: (outro jingle) Conversation like this only happen when you support the show.

590
00:54:35,294 --> 00:54:43,874
For more information and find ways to support us, please go to bandbpod.com, bandbpod.com.

591
00:54:44,414 --> 00:54:50,154
If you like what you are hearing, spread the word and share this podcast with the people you love.

592
00:54:50,194 --> 00:54:55,554
Make sure you hit that, uh, subscription button and give a review for the podcast.

593
00:54:56,194 --> 00:55:05,934
And as always, go check out the show notes to learn more about this topic and other topics we featured on the show at bandbpod.com.

594
00:55:06,314 --> 00:55:07,314
Thank you for listening.

595
00:55:07,474 --> 00:55:10,354
Till the next time, stay healthy and go plants.

596
00:55:10,434 --> 00:55:23,644
(outro jingle)