Ping Yu: Hey, hello everyone, welcome to the Blooms and Beyond podcast that uncovers plant history, culture, and management through the lens of science. I'm your host, Ping. How's everyone doing today? I am doing great because I'm excited to have all this wonderful information or conversations ahead of me with one of my favorite people and my dear friend here, Michael Martin, at the University of Georgia. So in today's episode, I have Dr. Michael Martin to give us an introduction to the green industry and what's behind the saying of the plant. Dr. Michael Martin has years of experience in horticulture, working closely with the green industry and academia.

Ping Yu: So we are going to pick his brain today to get more about the plant and all the stories behind the saying.

Ping Yu: I don't want to steal any of the thunder from him today, so let's jump right into it.

Ping Yu: Without further ado, here is my conversation with Dr. Michael Martin.

Ping Yu: I hope you enjoy it.

Ping Yu: Good morning, Michael.

Ping Yu: Welcome to the podcast.

Ping Yu: Before we get into any of those wonderful stories and experience, can you tell us a little bit of who you are and what you do?

Michael Martin: So, I am Michael Martin. I am currently the Science Research and Regulatory Programs Director with American Hort in the Horticultural Research Institute, HRI. I have been working in the horticulture industry almost my entire life. One of my first jobs was when I was five, sticking azalea cuttings, because that was the easiest job I could do.

Michael Martin: And I have really never left the industry. Every job I've had, every...

Michael Martin: experience, internship I've ever done has been directly related to the horticultural industry in some shape, form, or fashion. So it has been a lifelong endeavor for me, and it is something I truly enjoy doing.

Ping Yu: Oh, that's great, because I feel like you have some similar trajectory in terms of horticulture, because I did my first horticulture endeavor, it was my gardenia cutting when I was 10 years old.

Ping Yu: But I never thought I would end up in horticulture, but here we are.

Ping Yu: Along the conversation that you just mentioned, for those out there who don't know what American Hort is, can you tell us a little bit more of that?

Ping Yu: And also a little bit more about, like you mentioned, that you grew up with plants.

Ping Yu: So basically, you're a native kid of horticulture, right?

Ping Yu: Can you tell us a little bit more of those stories or your work experience along the line?

Michael Martin: Absolutely. So American Hort is the National Trade Association for Nurseries, Greenhouses, Independent Retailers, Stores, anyone that works with or in ornamental horticulture.

Michael Martin: We have a legislative arm in D.C. We have two lobbyists and a consulting horticulturist there.

Michael Martin: We have...

Michael Martin: staff now all over the country. I'm in Georgia, and so we're here to serve the industry. If there's an issue currently, we're dealing with cotton jassid or two-spotted cotton leafhopper. It's an issue here in the Southeast, and so we go in and we work with federal agencies, the state agencies, our growers in those areas, to help them understand the impacts of pest or disease and anything along those lines. And so we're really here as a service to the industry to help them move forward, help them grow bigger and better. And whatever needs that they may have as an industry, we're there to serve and help meet those needs. It is one of those things we talk about, jobs you don't know exist.

Michael Martin: I never knew this job existed, and it is my dream job.

Michael Martin: I get to work with the people that I grew up with as growers, the people I went to school with, college, my doctorate.

Michael Martin: They're now researchers.

Michael Martin: I get to work with them on a daily basis and get paid.

Michael Martin: That is my job.

Michael Martin: And I'm the matchmaker.

Michael Martin: So with the Horticultural Research Institute, HRI, that is our research foundation, the foundation arm of American Hort.

Michael Martin: And so we provide scholarships, research grants, and in the last three or four years, we have started a leadership academy to help build and bridge the next generation...

Michael Martin: of leaders in the industry. And so all of that is industry supported. We don't get any outside money. There's no federal money. There's no state money, really. We do have some state partners that contribute, but for the most part, everything that is brought into HRI is from the industry. And so we're extremely happy that they continue to support our endeavors through HRI.

Michael Martin: But my job is basically, if you as a grower have a question, have an idea, have a problem, and I play matchmaker.

Michael Martin: And I find a researcher that has expertise in that area, and I bring y'all together, and y'all are able to work through that problem.

Michael Martin: And if it's something of a scale that the researcher says, hey, let's put in a grant, they put in a grant and we have almost a year-long process for grant reviews and evaluations, and then we'll award a grant. And so by that way, the industry is helping to fund itself through research to make it a better product, a better place, a better service. So it really is my dream job.

Ping Yu: Yeah, I had the privilege of working with Michael closely with some of the grants for the HRI.

Ping Yu: So I know that you're a horticulture kid, grown up.

Ping Yu: So did you get your bachelor's degree and master's degree all in horticulture, or did you switch fields a little bit along the line?

Michael Martin: I strayed over.

Michael Martin: Strayed isn't the right word.

Michael Martin: I went into ag ed, agricultural education.

Michael Martin: But I'll go back and I'll say, in my youth, I had mentors that were phenomenal.

Michael Martin: Bob and Bill Head at Head-Lee Nursery, their sister Janet Lee, their parents.

Michael Martin: They were very formative for me.

Michael Martin: Jeff and Lisa Beasley at Transplant Nursery down in Lavonia, Georgia.

Michael Martin: The Head-Lees are in Seneca, South Carolina, where I grew up.

Michael Martin: My high school ag teacher, he was the one that really showed me that horticulture is not just fun, but a career. That you could actually go out and earn money. You could make your living in that. We were a small high school in Walhalla, South Carolina. We had four greenhouses, and we only sold plants from the first of March through Mother's Day, and it wasn't uncommon for us to bring in $100,000, $125,000 in that time frame.

Michael Martin: But as I moved forward, I went to Clemson University in Clemson, South Carolina for my bachelor's.

Michael Martin: Clemson's a 15-minute drive from where I grew up.

Michael Martin: And because of my ag teacher, because of how influential he was in my life, how important FFA was in my development as a leader, as a high school student, I decided I was going to do a master's in ag ed and I did a master's in adult...

Michael Martin: It's adult outreach and education as well as my teaching certificate for high school ag ed.

Michael Martin: And then I did some horticulture minor in there.

Michael Martin: I went and taught for a year, decided it was not for me.

Michael Martin: And Ping knows my wife.

Michael Martin: My wife taught for 10 years.

Michael Martin: My mother-in-law taught for, she's still technically teaching, but close to 35, 40 years.

Michael Martin: My mom taught for 35 years.

Michael Martin: My dad taught for 40 years.

Michael Martin: And so I was like...

Ping Yu: Teaching is not your thing.

Ping Yu: It's not your thing.

Michael Martin: Teaching is not my thing.

Michael Martin: And I will say this.

Michael Martin: There is nothing wrong with...

Michael Martin: deciding, "Hey, this is not where I want to be. I need to go back and look at something else." So I left the teaching field and I found another area of horticulture that we don't talk about: phytosanitary work. So I worked as a nursery inspector in South Carolina for about five years. It was a fantastic job. They gave me a truck, a gas card and said, go look for bugs, diseases and invasive plants at these nurseries.

Michael Martin: And I was driving a thousand miles a week. It was fantastic.

Michael Martin: We drove all over central South Carolina, visiting nurseries, doing their inspections.

Michael Martin: And I left that and decided I want to start a native plant nursery.

Michael Martin: Where I grew up, there's three lakes: Lake Jocassee, Lake Keowee, and Lake Hartwell.

Michael Martin: Lake Keowee in particular, the group that owns the lake, they were requiring if you put in a new dock or did any shoreline restoration, you had to do riparian zone planting.

Michael Martin: Yeah.

Michael Martin: And there was nobody in the area that had the plant material.

Michael Martin: We opened a nursery.

Michael Martin: We ran it for 10 years.

Michael Martin: It was a fantastic opportunity, fantastic learning experience for me, for my family.

Michael Martin: And then I got a wild hair and said, I'm going to apply to the University of Georgia for a PhD.

Michael Martin: And I met this young, through a whole process, I met this young man.

Michael Martin: He was a new faculty member.

Michael Martin: He was the nursery extension specialist, Ping's predecessor, Matthew Chappell, who's now back at Virginia Tech.

Michael Martin: I went and, he wasn't even on my interview list, but Paul Thomas...

Michael Martin: Yeah, Paul Thomas, who, fantastic researcher, fantastic man, who's unfortunately passed, his office was down the hall from Matthew's, and PT stood up, walked past me, yelled down the hall, "Chappell, get down here."

Michael Martin: And so Matthew comes walking down the hall, PT hands him my resume and said, "Michael's looking to do a doctorate, has strong nursery background."

Michael Martin: We talked for two minutes and that was it.

Michael Martin: And a week later, I got an email from Matthew and it was, yeah...

Michael Martin: "If you apply, or accept it, I'll take you as my graduate student."

Michael Martin: And so that brought me to Athens.

Michael Martin: That was 2009.

Michael Martin: And other than a short stint back in Clemson, I've been in Athens almost the entire time.

Ping Yu: Wow.

Michael Martin: And in that, working for the university, working for retail companies, wholesale, providing lighting for the greenhouse industry. It has been an interesting trip.

Michael Martin: I've been in Athens.

Michael Martin: And now here I'm at American Hort. I get to work with fantastic researchers like you. I get to work with the growers. And it truly is my dream job.

Ping Yu: So that's why I feel like your experience in and out can give us a little bit more of the information that people out there would not know because like you mentioned before, there are tons of career or job opportunities that you would never think are even existing in horticulture because a lot of people talking about horticulture, they're like, "Oh, what do you do? You just grow plants?" No, there's way more than that because we have a whole task force to support the plant and we have retailers, we have garden centers, we have the landscape, we have everything else in between to have a strong thriving industry.

Ping Yu: So it's not just growing plants.

Ping Yu: It's everything. There's a lot of things behind the thing.

Michael Martin: When you go to buy, let's say, a geranium in the spring, that's the finish line for that plant.

Michael Martin: Yeah.

Michael Martin: Because it's mid-September right now.

Michael Martin: The companies that produce the cuttings for the geraniums, they're producing those cuttings for the spring of 2026 right now.

Ping Yu: Yeah.

Michael Martin: And we're three, four months out from 2026, and those cuttings are produced in Central and South America.

Michael Martin: They're brought in. There's an inspection process there. There's transportation. There's all of these things.

Michael Martin: Yeah.

Michael Martin: Then when it finally gets to the finished nursery or the finished grower, it's going to be there for three to six months, depending on the plant.

Michael Martin: And this is just herbaceous. Woody plant materials, it's even a longer time frame.

Michael Martin: And so when you go in and say, "Oh, this is a beautiful plant," it's a six, eight-month journey to get it to you to say, "Yes, this is the plant I want to buy."

Michael Martin: And then there are hundreds, if not thousands of people involved to get it from a tiny cutting...

Michael Martin: in another country, sometimes on another continent, to your local store.

Michael Martin: And so there are so many hands, so many different things that go into just getting that plant to the finish line.

Michael Martin: And like you say, there are so many jobs.

Michael Martin: Every week, I learn about a new job.

Michael Martin: "I do this for whatever the case may be."

Michael Martin: "I'm this kind of plant health specialist."

Michael Martin: "I'm an entomologist that specializes in this."

Michael Martin: It's a wide field.

Ping Yu: Yeah, exactly.

Ping Yu: If you're going to, like, a local garden center and you pick this geranium or hydrangea, you're like, "Oh, this is a good plant."

Ping Yu: But you never, I would like you to think about and twist it back to the plant behind the plant, and there are, like, where it might be just your local garden center, but before that, where did it come from?

Michael Martin: I'll go back and touch on this. Plant breeders, when you go to buy that plant, five, possibly even 10 years ago, there was a plant breeder that was looking for a combination of genes, traits, whatever the case may be, that they thought would sell. They thought that people would be interested in, or it provides resistance to a disease, a pest, whatever. And so they have bred this plant and there might be millions, billions of dollars tied up in developing a new plant product.

Ping Yu: Yeah.

Michael Martin: And then you start with that cuttings, and so the cutting stage. And so when you see that plant, it's not just, "Oh, it was a month-long thing or a quick process."

Michael Martin: People's entire lives and careers could be completely wrapped up in development of this new plant.

Ping Yu: Yeah, I'm glad that I really just...

Ping Yu: Like, all of a sudden hit me in my brain right now.

Ping Yu: I was just like, I would say the breeders are like the designers for fashion.

Ping Yu: If you are in a fashion industry, those are the designers who would see the trends that will be giving, that will provide the product that they think will be popular in the future.

Michael Martin: They truly are.

Michael Martin: And the interesting thing for me is you go to the store and you're like, "I want a red petunia." The red petunia you bought last year is not the same variety as what's available this year, necessarily.

Ping Yu: No.

Michael Martin: And every year there is a new, to you as a consumer, it's a red petunia.

Michael Martin: It's the color I want.

Michael Martin: But it's a different variety every year.

Michael Martin: Yeah.

Michael Martin: Because as the breeders, they're, again, they're trying to improve the production of it.

Michael Martin: There's something that they're trying to improve on.

Michael Martin: And every year they're developing that new variety to help meet the needs of the growers, of the industry itself, and then of the consumers.

Ping Yu: Yeah. A lot of times, maybe the consumer in and of itself, they cannot tell the difference or the nuance between the petunia they bought this year to last year, but there is a lot of effort in between just to bring you...

Ping Yu: a little bit of novelty to the new cultivar of the plant.

Ping Yu: Okay, so back to the point with your trajectory of horticulture, you grew up with plants and then you have worked in the industry for so many years and you have seen so many plants.

Ping Yu: Among all the plants that you have seen or worked with, which one is your favorite and why?

Ping Yu: Okay.

Michael Martin: I love it. It's Tricyrtis. It's the toad lilies. And it goes way back. Park Seed and Wayside, they're in Greenwood, South Carolina. Every June, they would have their grower's days. And when I was young, their grower days were...

Michael Martin: basically they were cleaning out their facility.

Michael Martin: And I didn't, again, I didn't realize this as a child, what they were doing was they were cleaning out their facility.

Michael Martin: So they didn't have to hold stuff through the hot summer.

Ping Yu: Yeah.

Michael Martin: And then so that they could start bringing in new material for the fall.

Michael Martin: And so we would drive down from Clemson to Greenwood every June and, and one year they had these little cups, two and a half inch cups of Tricyrtis.

Michael Martin: It was either hirta or formosana 'Stolonifera'.

Michael Martin: I can't remember which variety or which species, but I paid my 25 cents and I brought my cup of Tricyrtis home.

Michael Martin: And that's been at least 30 years, if not closer to 40 years.

Michael Martin: I still have those plants.

Ping Yu: Wow.

Michael Martin: They're on the family farm in South Carolina.

Michael Martin: They're still growing. I love them. They're a shade plant. They flower. Most of the species flower in the fall.

Michael Martin: Yeah.

Michael Martin: And it's just one of those neat little plants that they're popular in some places.

Michael Martin: Sometimes you ask people, "Have you ever heard of a toad lily or a Tricyrtis?" And, "I've never heard of that."

Michael Martin: But it's just a neat little plant.

Ping Yu: Yeah, the Tricyrtis, I think there are like two to three cultivars that are well cultivated, at least in the US or North America.

Ping Yu: Hirta and formosana, those...

Ping Yu: Hirta is native to Japan and then formosana is native to China and Taiwan.

Ping Yu: So those are little tiny orchid-like plants.

Ping Yu: So in, at least in Asian culture, at least with my international background, in Asian culture, I guess it's same to other cultures as well.

Ping Yu: A lot of plants, people have their preferences to one plant, not just because of the appearance of the plant, but also because of the history and culture...

Ping Yu: that they represent.

Ping Yu: For the toad lily, at least in Asian culture, they are symbolized with good fortune, prosperity, elegance, and long life.

Michael Martin: I'll give you another great example.

Michael Martin: In my family, we have a Philadelphus, a mock orange. I think it's Philadelphus odorata, the name of it.

Michael Martin: My mother has a cutting that she took from my grandmother's plant in Greenville, South Carolina.

Michael Martin: That plant came from my great-grandmother, and it came from her grandmother.

Michael Martin: And so this plant, through cuttings, through the whole process, has been in our family for four generations.

Michael Martin: We've recently moved in the last three years, and so as soon as I'm happy with everything, I'm going to get cuttings from my mother's plant.

Michael Martin: And this plant, it's a native plant here in the Southeast, and one of my ancestors thought it was pretty, and so they moved it close to their homestead, and...

Michael Martin: through the generations, it has, right now I can see it in my head, it is on the bank next to my grandparents' homestead. This plant, through its lineage, at least for a hundred years, has been in our family. And so, like you talked, there's, I like the history of plants just as much as I do the plants themselves.

Ping Yu: Yeah.

Michael Martin: Another great plant is Shortia galacifolia, the Oconee bells.

Michael Martin: If you want to talk about just a neat plant, it has a very limited distribution in the northern part of South Carolina, but it was lost in the historic record for 100 years.

Michael Martin: Wow.

Michael Martin: When the great botanist came over from England, I believe it was Asa Gray, it was in his plant pressings that were sent back to France.

Michael Martin: They never found it again.

Michael Martin: That was the only record, was that pressed plant that went back to Europe.

Michael Martin: And a hundred years later, a child was out playing in the woods and brought back flowers.

Michael Martin: And they realized, "Oh, this is the lost plant."

Michael Martin: And so it's that kind of stuff that it's part of our history.

Michael Martin: It's part of not just who we are, but who the plant is.

Michael Martin: And when you understand that history, like you said, it brings a connection to the plants that it just builds that strength and connection that we have with nature, with our plants, with everything.

Ping Yu: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Ping Yu: Can you tell us a little bit, like, because again we talked about a little bit about each part...

Ping Yu: within horticulture in general, but can you draw us a big picture of horticulture in the U.S.? What specifically, ornamental horticulture in the U.S., what is the industry like and what is the status?

Ping Yu: And then we can talk more about the changes because I have viewed the changes for...

Ping Yu: It's been eight years since I moved to the U.S.

Ping Yu: And I have seen a lot of changes just in the industry in and of itself.

Ping Yu: So can you first draw us a picture of the status of the ornamental horticulture in the U.S....

Ping Yu: and then we can talk more about the changes that happened over the past year...

Michael Martin: maybe a decade. So right now the status is, I would say it's good. Unlike most industries, during the COVID lockdowns and even post-COVID years, the ornamental industry did phenomenally well for the most part. People, they were home, they couldn't go anywhere, and it's amazing the number of people that discovered either indoor gardening, gardening in general. And to that degree, there are some facilities, some nurseries that the vast majority of their business is still curbside.

Michael Martin: And so that's one of the trends that I have seen more.

Michael Martin: And again, it's due to COVID and the effects of the lockdown.

Michael Martin: Everything pushed online. And so these people would place their orders for plant material, and it was, "Okay, you're going to pick your plants up on this day at this time." They would put them...

Michael Martin: in a wagon, put them by the curb. The people would come out, get them. They would wave. There was no real connection or interaction. And like I said, there's some nurseries, some facilities, that is our primary sales methodology, is that curbside pickup.

Michael Martin: And it's both good and bad because it limits people's interaction with the plants.

Michael Martin: But when you go to the greenhouse, you go to the nursery, that's when you see the neat new stuff.

Michael Martin: And stuff that they may not have on the webpage yet, or they may only have 8 or 10, and it's not worth the effort.

Michael Martin: And that has been one of the bigger changes.

Michael Martin: But there's always weather impacts, whether it be drought, too much rain, and that's always funny for me to say is...

Michael Martin: We are dependent on the rain. And if you get too much, it's a problem. And if you don't get enough, it's a problem. So you have to be in that happy, just kind of Goldilocks zone. And just some of the economic reports that we see and get in every quarter from USDA, from some of our economists and other industry partners, it, by region, I would say everybody is, it's good this year. It's not great, it's not terrible, it's good. Everybody is fairly happy. Here in the Southeast, we're starting to get a little bit of drought and so that's a concern going into the fall, the fall being the best time of year to plant plants. But everybody wants to plant in spring. You do what you can. But I would say overall, 2025 has been a good year.

Ping Yu: Yeah.

Michael Martin: And there's...

Michael Martin: Go ahead.

Ping Yu: In terms of the U.S. horticulture, and now we're talking, there's a term, it's called American-made.

Ping Yu: So in terms of the plant and horticulture in general, do you know, like, how much, and ratio, how much of those plants that we're normally seeing in our daily life within the industry are American-made and how many of those are imported?

Ping Yu: Because I know there are certain plants and products that we just don't have the climate or environment, or even the labor force to produce.

Ping Yu: So it'll be easier or cheaper for us to import from other countries and other regions instead of for us to produce them.

Ping Yu: So do you have the kind of, like, a rough number to draw the picture of the American-made versus the non-American- made plants in general?

Michael Martin: I can't give an exact number, but I will say the majority of your trees and woody shrubs are going to be sole source produced in the United States.

Michael Martin: You may have the cuttings that come in for a new variety, and that's more intellectual property rights type work than anything.

Michael Martin: But you may have those initial starts, and then they'll do a cutting block or a propagation block and build from there.

Michael Martin: On your herbaceous stuff, particularly your annuals, like you said, most of those starts, and again, it's the cuttings most predominantly, that are coming in from Central and South America.

Michael Martin: And that's more of a plant physiology issue than anything.

Michael Martin: You have these major producers, and because of the day length, the temperature, all these things, like you said, that we don't have consistent here in the United States, they're able to produce plant material year-round.

Michael Martin: Believe it or not, the poinsettias for this Thanksgiving and this Christmas, they're predominantly produced in Central and South America, the cuttings are, because they can grow them during the summer and then ship them up here for the fall to finish out.

Michael Martin: And then as soon as those poinsettias come out or whatever the fall crop is, it may even be, not mums, but there are some crops that...

Michael Martin: And they'll switch to the spring crops because, again, the plants need a certain amount of temperature, a certain amount of day length to grow properly.

Michael Martin: And so we can either spend a lot of money doing artificial lighting to accomplish that, or you can build facilities in regions and locations where those physiological parameters are met.

Michael Martin: And so a lot of the herbaceous material is produced offshore.

Michael Martin: But it's just the cuttings.

Michael Martin: It will be brought into the United States and then be finished in the United States.

Ping Yu: Yeah, yeah.

Ping Yu: And I think one of the things about the plant in the South is because it also depends on where the plant is native to.

Ping Yu: Because if they are native to, like for instance, the poinsettia, you mentioned that South America would produce them more. That's just because they are, poinsettia is native to Mexico. So they are native to that specific environment. So that's why they can produce them with higher quality easier. And so if we were to produce those type of plants, we have to create the environment that they will survive and so that might cause some issues for us here in the United States to do that for the plants. And some of those, we just don't have that, even with the creation of the artificial environment, it will add extra input and it doesn't worth it in terms of bringing the benefits of growing there versus importing from somewhere else.

Michael Martin: And it becomes cost prohibitive, if we're honest about it. Because like you say, whether it be providing artificial light, heat, whatever the case may be, it adds input. And that is one thing that if you can make use of the natural conditions, you can make use of the natural conditions.

Michael Martin: So it's better for everybody. It's better for the cost. It's better for the environment because we're not having to produce electricity. Yes, we are having to ship, but it is not, you can put a thousand cuttings in a regular cardboard box.

Michael Martin: It's very cost-effective, and that's the big thing.

Michael Martin: And as we talk about jobs, there are entire people, their entire jobs are to look at these plants as they're coming in to make sure that there's no pests or diseases, anything like that.

Michael Martin: But I will say the growers pride themselves on producing the cleanest, highest quality plant material possible.

Ping Yu: Yeah.

Ping Yu: And I love our industry just because they are, a lot of the people, not just the plant.

Ping Yu: The people within the industry are so nice and they are so hardworking.

Michael Martin: It really is.

Michael Martin: The nursery greenhouse industry, the people, a lot of the growers, they're family.

Michael Martin: You may have three, four, some even five generations that have gone into building their company, and they take pride in it.

Michael Martin: And we're talking a little bit about plant quality.

Michael Martin: In the last 10 to 20 years, quality was one of those things, especially we'll go 20 years ago or so, the late 90s, early 2000s.

Michael Martin: Plant quality was not always assured.

Michael Martin: And it would be written into the contracts that the plants had to be certain height, certain quality, certain whatever. And now that's just the norm. That's the expectation that every plant that leaves your facility is going to be of the absolute highest caliber.

Michael Martin: Right.

Michael Martin: And it's, I was in a meeting with several growers and that was one of the things that they said, "We pride ourselves on having high quality plants," and that has now become the industry norm, industry standard, rather than the exception.

Ping Yu: Yeah.

Ping Yu: Yeah.

Michael Martin: That high quality.

Michael Martin: And that's, I'll say that's one of the things that has really, really changed in the industry is that.

Michael Martin: It is the highest quality.

Michael Martin: The plants are phenomenal, everything.

Michael Martin: And again, it's just that change in industry, change in mindset.

Ping Yu: So I'm glad that you mentioned that already.

Ping Yu: Those are some of the changes that you have observed.

Ping Yu: But besides that, are there any changes that you have observed in the past, I would say, years?

Ping Yu: In our industry, because one of the things that I have observed is that a lot of, like, the trade shows, they used to be very big and now we were at a phase where we don't see a whole lot of the trade shows anymore. Or even with the current existing trade shows, they become smaller. American Hort is still the largest trade show in the United States, where, besides MANTS, I don't know how, maybe those two are similar. But for the states or regional, there used to be, like, at least each state used to have a trade show that hosted every year and to display all those new varieties and new products that the state offers, but right now it's not that quite true. So can you tell us a little bit about that or any other changes that you have observed for the past 10, or maybe more than 10 years?

Michael Martin: I'll go way back. When I first got started in horticulture, named varieties were the rarity. And now it's, that's the expectation that every variety has, it's a known variety, a named variety. And again, when I first started, that was very uncommon. It was just a red petunia, a red geranium. And so now that, and it, part of it goes back to the marketing process.

Michael Martin: When you open up a home and garden magazine, there's a full-page spread of whatever the latest, greatest tree, shrub, plant is, so that when you go to the garden center, "I saw a picture of this, this is what I want."

Michael Martin: And it's been interesting to see how that has changed the market demand.

Michael Martin: And to your point about the trade shows, I think the trade shows go back to the cost.

Michael Martin: A lot of the growers, they were at the state shows, the regional shows.

Michael Martin: They may have done eight or 10 a year.

Michael Martin: And so a lot of the growers that have, the last couple of years, that was one of their biggest things, was we have become more selective in the shows that we exhibit at, more selective in the shows we attend because it is becoming cost prohibitive.

Michael Martin: They're not...

Ping Yu: As a grower yourself and a researcher yourself, and within American Hort, what are the main challenges that you would say that our industry is facing now?

Ping Yu: And are there any, like, solutions?

Ping Yu: Because I know American Hort and HRI and you guys are working closely with the industry to come up with ideas to help them.

Ping Yu: Can you explain some of those challenges and some of the solutions that you guys are in the process of developing?

Michael Martin: So labor is probably the biggest issue that I hear repeatedly.

Michael Martin: And our legislative team, they're working with H-2B, H-2A, and trying to get more workers that way.

Michael Martin: There is a move towards more automation.

Michael Martin: And that's not necessarily a bad thing because some of the automation jobs are the jobs where you have more injury.

Michael Martin: And there's been a lot of moves towards automation.

Michael Martin: And that's one of the big issues, or the biggest issue in my opinion, is labor.

Michael Martin: Other issues, and I will tell any younger person or older person that's looking for a career change, phytosanitary.

Michael Martin: So that's plant health.

Michael Martin: That's disease, insects.

Michael Martin: If you want job stability, if you want a scary day every day, go into phytosanitary work, whether it be at a state level, a federal level.

Michael Martin: A lot of the larger operations now have their own integrated pest management, phytosanitary person that does all of their pest and disease diagnostics.

Michael Martin: That's job security because there is something new every day, every week.

Michael Martin: And sometimes it is just a minor issue.

Michael Martin: Sometimes it is catastrophic. And so part of our job is, if something looks like it's going to have potential to be catastrophic, is to work with the growers, to work with the states.

Michael Martin: There's a group called the National Plant Board, and it is all plant health regulatory officers, which are at a state level, and then there's the State Plant Health Directors.

Michael Martin: They're called SPHDs. I can't remember what it is, but they're federal officers that work in each state.

Michael Martin: And so we work with National Plant Board, which is a gathering of them.

Michael Martin: USDA has a division called Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, APHIS.

Michael Martin: They have a subdivision called Plant Protection and Quarantine, PPQ.

Michael Martin: I meet with PPQ officers almost every week.

Michael Martin: And we discuss what is on the horizon for pests and disease.

Michael Martin: What are we having problems with now?

Michael Martin: Earlier, I mentioned cotton jassid or two-spotted cotton leafhopper.

Michael Martin: That's a current issue in the Southeast.

Michael Martin: And so we work with everybody to try to address these issues for the best outcome.

Michael Martin: And whether that outcome be quarantines, best management practices for spray, scouting, treatments, whatever.

Michael Martin: We work with everyone to have the best outcome, not just for our growers, but for any other affected group.

Michael Martin: We're going to talk about what we're going to do.

Michael Martin: So with cotton jassid, it's a severe pest of cotton.

Michael Martin: So we're working with the National Cotton Council and some of their affiliated groups.

Michael Martin: We're working with, like I said, PPQ, APHIS...

Michael Martin: the states to try to help figure out how we can scout for this pest, how we can control it, and how we can prevent it from being a major issue, not only to cotton, but to okra production and to ornamental production.

Michael Martin: There is a lot of cooperation, and there's a lot of behind-the-scenes work that even our growers don't necessarily see.

Ping Yu: Yeah, so...

Ping Yu: So basically for the, I'm glad you mentioned the collaborations and all those things that even our growers may not see. But as a researcher, as people who are working from a land-grant institution, do you think, like, how do you, what do you think the researchers like me, people who work for the industry and the land-grant institution, how can we better help with the green industry in general in collaboration with the industry and just to meet the requirements or needs for the growers?

Michael Martin: My best suggestion, if you're a new faculty member, a new researcher, call.

Michael Martin: Call the grower and say, "Hey, can I come and meet you?"

Michael Martin: "Can I come and tour your facility?"

Michael Martin: They would love to have you come out.

Michael Martin: I don't care where you're at.

Michael Martin: You have to form those relationships with the growers. And if, and Ping, I've worked with you for a while now, the growers know that you genuinely care about them, that you have an interest in their community...

Michael Martin: world, in their work, and in their lives. And if you can show somebody with sincerity that I have a genuine interest in the well-being of everything, that opens up doors that just calling or emailing is not going to open up. They want to know who you are. They want to see your face. And when you go out and see them, they're going to tell you stuff that they may not tell you on the phone or over email.

Michael Martin: As you're walking through the rows of their greenhouse or their nursery, "Oh, yeah, by the way, I've seen this."

Michael Martin: "And we've changed our production method, and now it's 20% faster, 20% better."

Michael Martin: That's an anecdotal comment. You as a researcher, you say, "Hey, can I take this method and do some research on it to see if we can improve the entire industry?"

Michael Martin: And I would say 99 times out of 100, they're like, "Absolutely." And then you as a researcher, you go back to them and say, "I'd like to use your facility as one of my research sites."

Michael Martin: They love that. They want to be involved. They want to see how their tax money, how their donations are used to better their industry, to better their businesses, their families, everything.

Michael Martin: And so that would be my biggest and best suggestion is get to know the growers in your state, in your region, and make yourself available.

Michael Martin: They want to see you. They want to know who you are.

Michael Martin: And I cannot overemphasize that.

Michael Martin: Make yourself available to them for whatever they need.

Ping Yu: Yeah, I can't agree with you more on that.

Ping Yu: As an extension specialist myself, I, and I enjoy that.

Ping Yu: I agree with you that at least for extension ornamental specialists like me, we need to go out there and talk to them.

Ping Yu: It's nothing comparable to just a...

Ping Yu: cold email or a phone call because they can't see you.

Ping Yu: They can't get to know who you are by just text.

Michael Martin: Exactly.

Michael Martin: And I'll take it to the next step.

Michael Martin: If you're coming into the industry, if you're fresh out of college or high school or whatever, go work.

Michael Martin: If someone tells you, "Hey, I'm going to show you how to do this type of grafting," it doesn't matter if you learned that in a lab at college.

Michael Martin: Let them show you because they're going to do stuff differently.

Michael Martin: They're going to do, you're going to learn these little tips and tricks of the trade that you may not have learned in class.

Michael Martin: And so horticulture is, and agriculture in general, is a very unique career because you can come in with absolutely no experience and in a year or two be fairly proficient in what you do.

Michael Martin: And so that's my thing. If somebody's going to teach you something, be willing, open yourself up to learn that because they may have a lifetime of experience that they're trying to share with you.

Michael Martin: Something else I would recommend is, again, join some of these associations: American Hort, IPPS.

Michael Martin: If you have a state association, join them.

Michael Martin: Get out and meet the growers.

Michael Martin: Meet the people in the industry.

Michael Martin: They love young people.

Michael Martin: See more young people involved.

Michael Martin: And there's this expectation that, you know, I...

Michael Martin: When people come in from outside the industry, they're like, "I need help with this." Go talk with your neighbors. And I can't get people from outside the industry to understand, most of the other, what would you, what would be your competitors in another industry?

Michael Martin: They are your competitors, but they're happy to help you because your success is their success.

Michael Martin: And there's so much of that. "I'm happy to teach you. I'm happy to share almost everything, not everything, with you." And they want to see your business be successful. They want to see you be successful. And in some of the other industries I've worked with and dealt with, that's not the case. Your competition from day one. And horticulture and agriculture in general, it is a, I hate to say, a family dynamic, but that's what it is. They want to see you succeed.

Ping Yu: So you briefly mentioned some of those potential job or career opportunities for any young folks out there who may not have...

Ping Yu: thought about getting into horticulture. Can you elaborate or give us some examples of potential job opportunities for them to explore the potential horticulture career?

Ping Yu: Yeah.

Michael Martin: So you can get jobs in anything.

Michael Martin: I know that's a broad generalization thing, but there are people that their job is entirely sales.

Michael Martin: They may never see a plant, but they go to the nurseries, the greenhouses, the retailers for their company, and they're selling things.

Michael Martin: "This is this year's cutting line, this year's propagation line, what can I interest you in?"

Michael Martin: They may never see a plant, but they're in that and they have to know them. So if you want to do sales, that's an opportunity. If you, I'll stick with the sales, there's so many inputs. Somebody has to produce the containers. Somebody has to produce the substrates, the fertilizers. My favorite are the tags and labels.

Michael Martin: You want to talk about change?

Michael Martin: You might can see them over my shoulder.

Michael Martin: I've got some NFC tags.

Michael Martin: So you can put all the data in that and you just walk by with your phone and scan it and it can give you all the production data for that plant.

Michael Martin: You put that on a tag, and when your customers come in and scan it, they get all that information.

Michael Martin: And it's not just, "This is the plant," and this is, it is everything.

Michael Martin: Like I said, plant breeders, engineers for facilities. If you want a job in horticulture, there will be a place for you.

Michael Martin: If you want to just learn how to grow plants, most facilities, they will start you off as a...

Michael Martin: depending on the operation, they call it an area grower or a section grower, and you'll have maybe an acre of plants. And then there'll be a grower above you who you will answer to. They'll have 10, 20, 40 acres. And then there'll be the head grower, and they're over the entire facility.

Michael Martin: And so you have all this going on.

Michael Martin: And so, again, I can't overemphasize, if you come in and are willing to learn, if you want to learn, there's opportunities for you.

Ping Yu: Yeah, because the reason why I'm asking you this is also traced back to one of the observations that I have witnessed for the past couple of years.

Ping Yu: In horticulture, in general, we have...

Ping Yu: The majority of those owners or people are, I don't know if they're still like the baby boomers, but a lot of older folks who are still in the active mode of production and owning their business.

Ping Yu: But as much as they love plant production and this industry in general, they are going to face the fact that they have to sit down a little bit.

Ping Yu: And one of the trends that I have seen is that a lot of, like, younger folks who are the next generation, the moment that some of their, maybe their dad will ask them, "Hey, do you want to take over the business?" A lot of times they will say no.

Ping Yu: The moment they got the business, they're going to sell it to somebody else and take the money and go away, do something else.

Ping Yu: So can you give us a little bit more reasons to help them to stay in this industry?

Ping Yu: Because like you mentioned, a lot of those nurseries are family-owned for generations after generations.

Ping Yu: And I would love to have that legendary family-owned legacy carry over just so that we can have a diverse business mode in our industry.

Michael Martin: It's an interesting point that you bring up.

Michael Martin: We do have a lot of owners that are aging out.

Michael Martin: And there's traditional transfers, and then I think it's non-traditional transfers.

Michael Martin: American Hort, we have a group that they've got the steps laid out.

Michael Martin: They can walk you through the process.

Ping Yu: Of succession planning?

Michael Martin: Exactly.

Michael Martin: They will help you with a transition plan.

Michael Martin: And so the traditional is it's going from one generation of the family to the next.

Michael Martin: Those are, I won't say easy, but they're easier.

Michael Martin: It's a fairly straightforward process. On the non-traditionals, what that is, as you said...

Michael Martin: you have an operation where the next generation doesn't necessarily want to take over, and so the owners will offer it to the company leadership that is not family, they'll offer it to somebody, and there's an entire process that they go through.

Michael Martin: Very rarely is it a direct takeover.

Michael Martin: Usually it's kind of a gradual thing.

Michael Martin: It may be a 10-year plan or whatever plan.

Michael Martin: Where the leadership or the new owners slowly take over, slowly learn more of that backroom, behind-the- scenes business that they may not have necessarily known was going on.

Michael Martin: Just the day-to-day operations that the family would handle.

Michael Martin: And so it is a very...

Michael Martin: It's an interesting process.

Michael Martin: We do have a couple of operations that are currently doing traditionals.

Michael Martin: There's one or two doing non-traditionals.

Michael Martin: But if you get into the industry and say, "Hey, I want to own my own operation, but I don't have that," start putting feelers out.

Michael Martin: And this is why, as somebody coming into the industry, it's important to go to these trade shows.

Michael Martin: It's important to get out and know people.

Michael Martin: Because if you start whispering, "Hey, I'm looking to buy my own place, I don't have the money to directly buy it," there's probably going to be somebody that's ready to retire.

Michael Martin: And they will bring you in and help you through this process.

Michael Martin: And you end up with their operation in some shape, form, or fashion.

Michael Martin: I'm providing an oversimplification of it, but that's how it works.

Michael Martin: Because, like you say, the other two options are for it to either close or just to be sold into the wild.

Michael Martin: Yeah.

Michael Martin: That's not always the best plan.

Michael Martin: Because when you have somebody new come in and take over, they may not know the ins and outs.

Michael Martin: And there's always some adjustment.

Michael Martin: But, yeah, we do have, at American Hort, the...

Michael Martin: kind of the roadmap for transitions, both traditional and non-traditional.

Ping Yu: Yeah, the sad part for me is to know that most of those agricultural, horticultural properties are facing the challenge of being pushed out because...

Ping Yu: a lot of times they were like, "Okay, you have a greenhouse operation here, but the land in and of itself is worth more if we shut down everything that you have in there and transform it into a residential area." And that's one of the challenges that a lot of people in this industry are facing. So if a young grower asked you how to set themselves up for a long-term success, what kind of suggestion would you tell them?

Michael Martin: Work for somebody else first. That is my first suggestion. Don't open your own business day one. Go get experience. And don't be afraid to, if you stay at one job two or three years, that's fine.

Michael Martin: But just go out and get experience.

Michael Martin: There's a couple of family growers that I know and work with.

Michael Martin: If you decide to come back and work at the family nursery, the family greenhouse, you have to work somewhere else for five years or 10 years before you can come into the family operation.

Michael Martin: Because they want you to go out and get new ideas and see how other people do it before you come home, if you will.

Michael Martin: And so I encourage that for everybody.

Michael Martin: Go out and work for somebody else.

Michael Martin: See what works for them, what doesn't work.

Michael Martin: Where do they deviate or do something different than...

Michael Martin: somebody else or what you were taught. But that is my biggest and best suggestion, is when you're in college or you're in high school, go work, do internships, summer internships, afternoon work, whatever the case may be. If you have a facility close by, take that as an opportunity to go and to work with them and learn, because that is the biggest thing, is learning.

Michael Martin: That knowledge, that information that they have as growers, that is so valuable that I honestly can't put a price on it.

Michael Martin: And after you feel comfortable, go work for somebody else because that comfort is deceitful.

Michael Martin: But then if you want to open your own facility, I would do that.

Ping Yu: Yeah, I agree with that.

Michael Martin: And I'll also encourage you, we're doing a nursery tour next week in the Maryland, Virginia area. Go on those tours. Take pictures. Because you're going to go and see stuff that you're like, "Oh, I never thought about this being a problem," or "this being a whatever."

Ping Yu: Yeah.

Michael Martin: And I love going on nursery tours.

Michael Martin: I love going on greenhouse tours.

Michael Martin: I just like seeing how different people have solved the same problem or how the same production idea, how it translates out into so many different iterations, but the same, you end up at the same place.

Michael Martin: And I love seeing that because it's, you're going to open a facility up and you're going to face your own challenges.

Michael Martin: And while how they do it may not be an exact fit, you'll have an idea of, "Oh, so-and-so did it this way."

Michael Martin: "If I change it just a little bit, it'll be a perfect fit for me."

Ping Yu: Yeah.

Michael Martin: And getting out and seeing those things, again, having those work experiences at other operations, they are so valuable.

Michael Martin: I cannot overemphasize that.

Ping Yu: Yeah, I agree with that.

Michael Martin: That's...

Ping Yu: So are there any last comments or suggestions you want to leave for our audience today?

Michael Martin: Ornamental horticulture is a fantastic career.

Michael Martin: It's a fantastic industry.

Michael Martin: And whatever angle you want to take, whatever career you want to pursue, there's a very good chance there's a place for you in horticulture.

Ping Yu: Thank you.

Ping Yu: If people want to find more information on you or American Hort, where do you recommend they go look for more?

Michael Martin: Yeah.

Michael Martin: So go to our webpage, americanhort.org.

Michael Martin: Ping, I think that's the right address off the top of my head.

Michael Martin: I can't remember.

Ping Yu: Yeah, I'll put the right link in the show notes so that people can find out more if they want to.

Ping Yu: All right.

Ping Yu: Thank you, Michael, for those wonderful conversations.

Ping Yu: I have learned a lot.

Ping Yu: We know each other a little bit.

Ping Yu: We know each other very well, but I still learned a lot...

Ping Yu: in terms of the horticulture.

Ping Yu: And so thank you so much for sharing your experience...

Ping Yu: and expertise in horticulture and your passion in horticulture.

Ping Yu: Thank you.

Michael Martin: Thank you, Ping.

Ping Yu: Thank you.

Ping Yu: And as always, go check out the show notes to learn more about this topic and other topics we featured on the show at bandbpod.com.

Ping Yu: Thank you for listening.

Ping Yu: Till the next time, stay healthy and go plants!